[kconway]

Tom,

Your freeform tee concept is one of things that really impressed me about Ballyneal.

It made the golf more casual and fun, and i think it will take me many, many rounds to see all the different angles and views of play the varying tees provide.

 

[John Sheehan]

Tom,
I love the idea and have used it myself in evening rounds at my club.  It makes the course so much more interesting and fun.  As others have noted, it also forces you to rethink the holes your played so many, many times.  Interestingly, maybe I'm just not a good salesman, but I've found it difficult to get some of my buddies to play this way. They are very resistant to this mix and match philosophy. The whole notion of posting a score is deeply ingrained in some.  Personally, it's like being a kid again:  Make your own course for the day. 

I've tried to get the course to set up the course this way on occasion; but they too have resisted the idea.  The closest we get is in a Red, White and Blue tee tournament.  Too bad, but maybe it will catch on at some point.  I hope so.

[Carl Rogers]

It seems to me that part of this variable element is to keep the superior player on their toes. 

If it is a 'new' course everyday, then new opportunities and challenges.  Over time their should be  a wider interface of the architecture and the golfing qualities.

[Richard Boult]

One course I play regularly has "combo" tees with an official slope/rating, however, this same course always moves the tees back when the pin is up and moves the tees up when the pin is back... so from any one teebox, the hole plays the same yardages every day.  I hate that.

[Jed Peters]

Tom:

If it's any consolation (and I know you probably know this), but the super at Pac Dunes seems to do this quite a bit depending on wind conditions and course conditions.

Keeps the course fresh (like it needs any help!) and fun--i.e. not hitting driver, 3 wood, 5 iron into a 450 yard par 4 on a windy day into the wind or driver, chip on a 400 yard downwind hole!

[Garland Bayley]

...
If you just play a mix of tees for fun, you can calculate a rating and slope by using the USGA handicap manual section 5-1's tables for unrated tees.  See this link and scroll down for the tables for men and women:  http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_05.html#5-1
 

 
Thanks John,

I have always wanted information like that!

Garland

[TEPaul]

It's a great idea. I say give them as many "courses" as the elasticity will allow. It'll show all the strategic personalities of a golf course. Mike Davis gave those guys at the Open two, three or maybe four courses in a single tournament. It's great stuff. If you really want to take it to another level use the recommendation Geoff Shackelford once made----don't give them pin sheets before the round---that'll get their rich heads working overtime!! 

[JohnV]

We used to play a game where getting the honors also meant picking the tees you hit from on the next hole. Having the honors meant trying to pick a tee on the next hole that would give you an advantage.

The game went away when everyone became obsessed with typing in a score at the end of their round. It's a shame, it was lots of fun.

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is more fun than walking naked in a strange place, but not much.
 --Buddy Hackett

Another interesting idea I've heard of is playing a scratch tournament where everyone starts on the white tees (for example).  If you make a birdie or better you move back for the next hole.  If you make a par you stay where you are.  If you make bogey or worse you move forward.  Most players end up on the forward tees pretty quickly where they have a lot more fun.

It works very well if you have more than 3 sets of tees.

This was used for the amateurs at a Pro-AM and resulted in much better pace of play as everyone pretty much ended up where they belonged.

[Tom_Doak]

Jed:  Thanks for the note about Pacific Dunes.  Jeff Sutherland, the superintendent, is a very good player and I'm not surprised he does well in setting up the course.  But to tell the truth, I've never noticed, because when I do play out there I do not feel compelled to abide by the markers ... I just play from wherever I want.

[JC Jones]

Jed:  Thanks for the note about Pacific Dunes.  Jeff Sutherland, the superintendent, is a very good player and I'm not surprised he does well in setting up the course.  But to tell the truth, I've never noticed, because when I do play out there I do not feel compelled to abide by the markers ... I just play from wherever I want.

and what gives you that right?  Some people...

[John Foley]

WE play a semi regular 2nd 18 where we start all the way back and move up one tee box every hole. Sometimes it's combined w/ alternate shot or scamble.

More fun than most every other time we play and more should do this.

[Dan Kelly]

I wish every course in America would do this -- in the pursuit of diversity!

[John Mayhugh]

We used to play a game where getting the honors also meant picking the tees you hit from on the next hole. Having the honors meant trying to pick a tee on the next hole that would give you an advantage.

The game went away when everyone became obsessed with typing in a score at the end of their round. It's a shame, it was lots of fun.

Cheers,
Dan King

I want to give this a try soon.  Sounds like a blast.  I can usually get guys I play with to use some composite set of tees if  the overall yardage from a particular set of tees isn't working out, but something like this will be challenge.  Since when are you supposed to have fun playing golf? 

[cary lichtenstein]

About 4 years ago, when I first became a member of the Ritz here in Jupiter, I asked them to put together a composite course of 9 Back Tees and 9 championship tees with a yardage of 6850. They did so and even had it rated from those tees, ditto my wife's course.

When I travel, I usually play the 2nd set of tees but the par 3's all the way back

[JohnV]

Jed:  Thanks for the note about Pacific Dunes.  Jeff Sutherland, the superintendent, is a very good player and I'm not surprised he does well in setting up the course.  But to tell the truth, I've never noticed, because when I do play out there I do not feel compelled to abide by the markers ... I just play from wherever I want.

Tom the problem I see with the way they setup Pacific Dunes is that are stuck in a 3-area rotation of the holes.  Everyday is front-middle-back, middle-back-front or back-front-middle.  Since all the par 5s are exact multiples of 3, you get all of them on the front, middle or back on the same day.

It wouldn't be that hard to modify the rotations in a different way.  Since they have the pre-printed cards for the hole locations, they could do something like F-M-B-B-M-F-M-F-B ...  so at least they wouldn't all be the same.

Or just get rid of the stupid preset locations and let people use their eyes or their range finders to figure it out.

[Tom_Doak]

JVB:  Kemper Sports does a lot of things well in Bandon, but as a management company, sometimes their corporate simplifications of daily procedure do not make for the most interesting golf.

[Jason Fiorita]

I have been a member for a while now and this is my first post.  Without getting into the vast changes in golf for better or worse I would like to share my enthusiasm with thus subject, albeit in sort of a different way.

My father, who is a former club champion and a scratch golfer, and I recently played together on fathers's day. After a few years of asking him to try the senior tees (which is how he views them), he did. For the first time in a long while his smile, one that can only be associated with satisfaction in one's play, was overwhelming.  It was a wonderful day for both of us and one that I will always cherish.  However, I no longer want to play him using those tees because my length is all I had on the big old guy. 

Let use not forget that this is a game played not won and it should be enjoyed by all.  I wish some of the stigmas that have been associated with golf could be transformed by good architects, superintendents, greens committee's etc.  I am glad that there is this movement with many on GCA and am glad to be a part of it.

Thank you all
Jason W. Fiorita

[Kalen Braley]

Welcome Jason,

And I can hardly think of a better way to introduce yourself to the board. 

By all means continue to wade into the deep end of the pool and whatever you do, just don't mention the M word.   

Kalen

[Cory Brown]

Tom,

Thank you so much for posting this idea.  I have heard of the tournaments where you move back after a birdie and move forward after a bogey and love the idea.  I actually set up a tournament like this for our crew and it was great fun.  It definitely included some good natured ribbing when you saw a group playing from the forward tees.

I have always wanted to move the tees around a little more at my club as well, I feel members get into the habit of playing golf by rote memorization.  1st tee Driver, 2nd tee 3-wood, 3rd tee Driver etc.  I love the idea of moving tees up and back both so a player can carry a hazard they normally can't or cut the corner on a dogleg, or have to lay up when they normally might not.  Pacific Dunes has the advantage of not only many different tee options, but also significant wind that can change the way the course plays even from the same set of tees.  Unfortunately at a lot of private clubs if you put the tees forward many members will get upset that the course is playing to easy, even if on another hole you move the tees back, because then that one is playing too hard.

I wish more golfers would open up their minds to the joy that can be found in the variety of their own club just by playing the course a little differently.

[Jason Fiorita]

Thank you Kalen.  I will try and swim a bit more.

Jason

[Doug Siebert]

I think a lot of courses will move certain tees up now and then, I know I see it on the courses around here.  Typically its limited to longer par 4s and par 5s, and maybe a par 3 or two.  But a 450 yard par 4 playing at 420 is a totally different thing from playing it from the women's tees at 330.

I wonder how people would react if they did something like that?  I think a lot of them would find fault in it, but it was pointed out that it is exactly what they did in the US Open I could see it meeting a much better reception.

On the other hand, if you starting moving up par 4s to where they are driveable or par 5s to where they are in range for more players, its just going to slow things down.  So it may not be a good idea for busier courses.

I do remember playing a course once that was something like 7300 yards from the tips, ostensibly, but there were a few holes where the back tees were playing on a teebox in front of the next set up.  It was kind of confusing and at first we thought they'd made a mistake but saw it on another hole and asked at the turn and they said they did it for the sake of variety and because most players found the course too difficult when every hole was playing to its full length.

[JWinick]

Today, I played Olympia Fields South "composite-style."   We played the odd holes from the White tees, the even holes from the Black tees.   Length-wise, it was fairly close to the Blue tees.   It was great fun.   3 of the par 5s were from the tips.    Here's was our length and par

1 - Par 4 - 396
2 - Par 4 - 482
3 - Par 3 - 152
4 - Par 5 - 543
5 - Par 3 - 190
6 - Par 4 - 375
7 - Par 5 - 540
8 - Par 4 - 409
9 - Par 4 - 435
10 - Par 5 - 500
11 - Par 4 - 331
12 - Par 3 - 212
13 - Par 4 - 380
14 - Par 3 - 150
15 - Par 4 - 405
16 - Par 4 - 365
17 - Par 4 - 420
18 - Par 5 - 530

In total, it added up to 6815, Par 72.  The Blue tees are 6888, so you just input the blue tees for handicap purposes.  Most courses the Blacks & the Whites average out to the Blues.

While the round was awful for me (I'm at 10.5) due to a ridiculous number of 3-puts, I shot a 93, 21-over par.  Interestingly enough,  I shot 9-over from the tips, 12-over from the whites.   Mixing it up definitely messes with your mind.   Isn't that what a good set-up is supposed to do - make you think?

[Tim Bert]

I played at a course where they did this in the worst possible way. They made all the short holes play from the back and all the long holes play from the middle. The result was one of the most boring courses I've played. Almost every par 4 was of similar length. I'm a fan of making the short holes shorter and the long holes longer.

I've done this at my home course a few times and it is a blast. Mike H - #15 North is wild from the tips (if you can reach the tips) and #17 is a hoot from the fronts. Need to get together and try to mix up the course some time.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Doak said:  "We discussed this idea a few months back, but now Mike Davis has given it some cachet -- the idea of playing some holes from the forward and middle tees during a round, instead of playing everything from the back. "

The idea is actually quite old and been used at clubs for a long time.  We initiated something like this several years ago at Lehigh after convincing the Golf Committee it made sense and that it could add even more variety to the golf course.  The biggest issue we had to face, however, was "handicapping".  If you go out for example and play half the back tees, half the middle tees and half the forward tees on a course and shoot 75, how do you post your score?  What is the slope and course rating for that set of tees for handicap purposes?  We had to get our course re-slope rated and course rated from the various alterations we made with the different combination teeing locations so golfers could post a score for their handicap.  Some here might say that this is silly but the reality of the game we play is that handicaps are a HUGE part of it.  If everyone played even up like they do on tour, it wouldn't be an issue.   

I think it is a great idea but this is something to keep in mind for those of you who are thinking about this at your home club.
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I know about the "handicapping" argument but I think it is overstated.  In truth, on any given day, 80% of the courses in America are playing forward of the official markers where the handicap rating has been calculated -- management moves the tees up to get people around.  But I will ask Mike Davis how to get around that, the next time I see him.

In general, I think as long as you put one tee back for every one you put forward, things are likely to even out and it won't throw off the handicapping too much.

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