Golfweeks Best Munis

[Mike Demetriou]

Mike,

Walking before 8am on weekdays is about half price as well as a quick round (as long as you can get off of work).

I think the 16th is a pretty good hole, and an easy tee shot. It is really a two iron, five iron, wedge hole.

Pat, though I wish I could play on weekdays before 8am! Unfortuneately, not only am I a lawyer, but I have a one year old daughter.  That I can play at all these days is a minor miracle.

[PCCraig]

Mike,

May I ask what your handicap is?

I always thought Thunderhawk was tough in spots but for the most part fair. IE for every tough hole (par-4 #9) there is an easy one (par-5 #7).

[Mike Demetriou]

No problem, I hover between 17 and 19. but even I cannot hit driver on #16.

[John Kavanaugh]

  Everyone that's played one Fazio course loves it.  Talk to them after they've played 30-40 different ones and only then will they be able to see them with a critical eye. 

I can't decide if the above is based on ignorance or arrogance.  I've met and played with people who did not fall in love with their first Fazio.  I think three or four Fazio courses will give you the ability to see them with a critical eye.  Just ask your brother Tommy Naccarato.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

Read your post with much interest.

As someone who has served as a panelist for two of the national publications let me just say this ...

1). A consensus-driven formula will always have serious holes in it. Even morer so than if a list were prepared by one person because the consensus driven list is nothing more than a hodge-podge of results and is often contradictory because of the scattered nature of the people providing the information.

2). Having more and more raters -- say beyond 200 or more doesn't provide for more coverage or better insight. It simply adds more voices to the mix. I don't doubt that those who handle such situations try to remediate those situations but the fact remains that more people doesn't translate into anything more than the fact that more people are weighing in with their choices.

3). Plenty of people who do rate do not provide any cross-comparisons -- they are simply pushing layouts usuaully within their geographical area. In some -- the context of where specific courses fit or don't fit is often not possible. For example, the best North Dakota course may be great for that respective state and even its neighbor South Dakota but when held up against a national bar it's likely not going to be seen as that good. Unfortunately, the person or persons rating the course primarily from within the context of North Dakota and the Great Northern Plains may not be aware of just how good the overall public standard has risen in other states. Yet, their vote is counted as the same as someone else who has traveled more and played more courses. In sum -- the one/man one/vote principle which is essential in a modern democracy works in a dissmiliar fashion when rating courses.

Or the flip side may occur -- let's just say a really solid layout in the Great Northern Plains does exist. The reality is that a few places will fly below the radar simply because so few people got there to play it. Greywalls in Marquette, MI is a good example of this type.

I do agree that having different listings makes sense because you can actually have apples to apples situations. Keeping lists to only a top overall 100 -- whether it be modern or classic or what GM and GD actually do -- is quite limiting and doesn't reflect the unique elements these different courses do provide.

[John_Conley]

Matt, thanks for your comments.  We agree on many levels.  The limitations that exist are also limitations that are impossible to get around.

One alternative to the methods used by the three main US magazines is to have one definitive person providing their list.  This too falls short of elusive perfection, as not even one as well-traveled as Matt Ward can get to all the courses.

Out of curiosity, how many of the 30 have you seen/played?  You've got to be on the high end.

[John_Conley]

I can't decide if the above is based on ignorance or arrogance.  I've met and played with people who did not fall in love with their first Fazio.  I think three or four Fazio courses will give you the ability to see them with a critical eye.  Just ask your brother Tommy Naccarato.

I've painted with too broad a brush when I said "everyone".  Great, you think three or four suffices.  Now go stand in a golf shop or on the first tee of a random public-access course and tell me what percent of people you ask have seen more than a few Tom Fazio designs.

He hasn't done a lot of work in some Midwestern states like Minnesota and Wisconsin.  To someone that has only played Spring Hill it would be an eye-opener to learn how many courses he's designed that are similar in character.

I'll let you ask Tommy.  He and I rarely speak and I've never met him.  Last time I recall talking to Tommyknockers was May 2006 when I was in San Diego for work.  We may have exchanged e-mail in September 2006.

My 30-40 comment is mainly because of a specific point I raised to a Fazio design associate.  I've played the same hole three times on different courses - one in Orlando, one near Naples, and one somewhere else.  When I asked about it I was told they sometimes stick with what works when they find something they like.

It is no mystery you take exception to many things that appear in GOLFWEEK, the "America's Best" undertaking being only one example.  Your quibbling has become expected.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Exactly...I think there is something close to 14 Fazio courses in the Golfweek top 100.  Either Fazio is doing something right or you and your brethren are rating something wrong.  Either way I win.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

For whatever its worth I think that playing the same hole on different courses can be said for many architects.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

To be candid with you -- given the wealth and speed of info today there are no "hidden" courses that escape detection. That may have been the case years ago but not now. I base my visits on what I hear from a wide variety of key sources -- many of whom are not associated with any ratings panel.

I do believe it is possible -- provided the passion and energy is there -- to visit and play all the key courses. The issue becomes one of just how long a specific rating can hold. What do I mean? First, no course is static. Courses are constantly evolving in even the smallest of ways. The base assessment of a course can hold provided no sweeping changes / modifications have been made. If you can get updates from such sources you can then determine whether a future visit is really needed.  

John, the magazines have recruited people as an inexpensive information source. In some cases the results you get from certain people are quite good -- in other cases you get nothing more than a regionalists take and likely bias. But keep this in mind -- cheap information does come with a price. I would dare say that half of the courses you see listed merit their spot -- 25% are borderline and the remaining 25% are clearly out of their league.

Having one person is possible -- John Parker does this with wines and golf courses would be no different. Difficult. No doubt -- but possible.

TOTAL NUMBER I'VE PLAYED TO DATE = 21

1. Bethpage State Park (Black) Farmingdale, N.Y. 8.07 *Played it many times.
 
2. Chambers Bay GC University Place, Wash. 7.78 Not yet
 
3. Indian Wells GR (Players) Indian Wells, Calif. 6.14 Played it
 
4. Pinon Hills GC Farmington, N.M. 6.14 Played it
 
5. Torrey Pines (South) La Jolla, Calif. 6.1 Played it
 
6. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium) Scottsdale, Ariz. 5.95 Played it
 
7. Indian Wells GR (Celebrity) Indian Wells, Calif. 5.93 Played it
 
8. Memorial Park Houston 5.9 Played it but not recently -- over 15 years ago
 
9. Thunderhawk GC Beach Park, Ill. 5.86 Not yet
 
10. Wintonbury Hills GC Bloomfield, Conn. 5.78 Not yet
 
11. Bear Trace (Ross Creek) Clifton, Tenn. 5.71 Not yet
 
12. Mount Pleasant GC Baltimore 5.7 Played it -- can make a case that sister course Pine Ridge is more noteworthy
 
13. Harding Park GC San Francisco 5.67 Played it
 
14. George Wright Municipal GC Boston 5.63 Played it
 
15. Fossil Trace Golden, Colo. 5.61 Played it
 
16. TPC Scottsdale (Champions) Scottsdale, Ariz. 5.59 Not yet
 
17. Bethpage State Park (Red) Farmingdale, N.Y. 5.56 Played it
 
18. Triggs Memorial GC North Providence, R.I. 5.55 Played it
 
19. Torrey Pines (North) La Jolla, Calif. 5.52 Played it
 
20. Indian Canyon Spokane, Wash. 5.5 Played it -- wonderful layout but really an addition tied to its glorious past and the person (Chandler Egan) who created it.
 
21. Laurel Hill GC Lorton, Va. 5.45 Not yet
 
22. Hideout GC Monticello, Utah 5.45 Played it -- too bad it's location keeps exposure limited
 
23. Chickasaw Pointe Kingston, Okla. 5.43 Not yet
 
24. Sand Creek Station GC Newton, Kan. 5.4 Not yet
 
25. Sunbrook GC (Pointe/Woodbridge) St. George, Utah 5.38 Played it
 
26. North Palm Beach CC North Palm Beach, Fla. 5.36 Played it
 
27. Chaska Town Course Chaska, Minn. 5.36 Not yet
 
28. Montauk Downs State Park Montauk Point, N.Y. 5.33 Played it
 
29. Brown Deer Park GC Milwaukee 5.29 Played it
 
30. Wingpoint GC Salt Lake City, Utah 5.27 Played it -- nice course but one could have added the layouts located in nearby Park City -- such as Soldier Hollow's Gold Course. I believe the course is taxpayer-owned.
 


I'll say this again major omissions include ...

Hominy Hill / Colts Neck, NJ

Crandon Park / Key Biscayne, FL

Stone Mountain / Stone Mountain, GA

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

Interesting take on that list.  It looks like you've been to SLC a few times.  I'm curious what you thought about South Mountain golf course in Draper.  It is a county owned course and 2nd only Thanksgiving Point of the publics in the area.

I've also played Indian Canyon several times, and its biggest weakness is probably the lack of fairway bunkering.  But with the undulation, doglegs, and tricky greens, not sure how much its needed. 

Kalen

[John_Conley]

John,

Exactly...I think there is something close to 14 Fazio courses in the Golfweek top 100.  Either Fazio is doing something right or you and your brethren are rating something wrong.  Either way I win.

Tom Fazio does a lot of things right.  I have been supportive of many of his courses, including some that don't register in the Top 100.  I'm not sure how this means something is wrong.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

I would place South Mountain ahead of Wingpoint but would not necessarily mean it would garner a top 30 nationwide position. I'd have to think that one through. You should play the Gold 18 at Solider Hollow in the nearby Park City area. I also see Sunbrook in St. George as a borderline choice from the Beehive State.

In regards to Indian Canyon -- I played in the USGA Pub Links there in '84 and when the course is played with #18 as a par-4 it can be quite fun. Ditto the 1st hole as a par-4. The layout is still good and worthy playing from the historic side of things but a top 30 placement in 2008 is a stretch in my book.

[John_Conley]

Matt, this is interesting and illustrates a point.  One school of thought has John Parker evaluating all wines and another extreme is the Wikipedia approach where everyone has some input.  The golf magazines function with a panel somewhere in between.

You have played 21 and have yet to visit 9.  I have played 7, but three of those are ones you haven't.  It doesn't take too long before we can have complete coverage.

Neither you or I went out of our way to specifically target these because they are on the list.  We played all of them before the list was released.  What we did to is make a point to seek out notable and interesting courses.

I trust your opinion that Hominy Hill is worthy of being on this list, just like I hope you'll trust mine that Braemar and Bunker Hills - two courses that used to be on the Best Public list with Hominy Hill 20 years ago - aren't.

This is a perfect science so perfection cannot be the standard.  Over 100 HS basketball players were recruited more than Adam Morrison.  David Cook won over David Archuleta.  Jack Nicklaus never won the US Junior.

Your John Parker comment has a big flaw.  If you or Brad Klein published such a one-man list there would be countless comments about how such and such was left off because you've never played it.  Or if you tried to combat that you could place them where you 'think' they'd fall if you did see them and then you'd be relying on others indirectly.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a link to all or most of the courses Fazio has designed: http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/tom-fazio.html I honestly do not see the critical value in anyone playing more than five in an unaccompanied manner.  Golfweek does the world of golf, its players and architects, a great disservice by crowding up a list as short as a top 100 by listing 14 courses of such similar nature by the same architect.  Expensive, exclusive Fazio courses are great...We get it.  Bently makes a great sedan but you don't see Motor Trend listing every model with every option in their best of lists.

If I was discussing a personal top 100 with any expert and he reached more than 10 courses by any one achitect I would dismiss him like an unattached tick.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

I would place South Mountain ahead of Wingpoint but would not necessarily mean it would garner a top 30 nationwide position. I'd have to think that one through. You should play the Gold 18 at Solider Hollow in the nearby Park City area. I also see Sunbrook in St. George as a borderline choice from the Beehive State.

In regards to Indian Canyon -- I played in the USGA Pub Links there in '84 and when the course is played with #18 as a par-4 it can be quite fun. Ditto the 1st hole as a par-4. The layout is still good and worthy playing from the historic side of things but a top 30 placement in 2008 is a stretch in my book.

I haven't played any of those courses over there yet.  I'll need to go take a look at it, especially if you think it stacks up favorably against a South Mountain or TP.

Agreed on IC, the 1st hole is a par 4 for sure.  18 however is out of my league as a par 4.  But when you bomb it long off the tee like you I guess, that hole becomes exponentially easier when you get it up on that shelf as opposed to the heavily left to right off-cambered fairway short of that.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Yes, do visit the Park City area and see how the Gold Course at Soldier Hollow stacks up. I'm not suggesting it would make a top 30 muni nationwide listing but it's righ tup there with the likes of South Mountain and clearly beyond Wingpoint.

In regards to IC -- the 18th was played as a legitimate par-4 because strong hitters can attack the separation point -- roughly 280 yards off the tee. No doubt it's not an hole but when the 1st and 18th conclude as par-4's it does make for a more demanding overall par. Still, IC for me is more of a historic course that should be celebrated for what it provided during the trying times of The Great Depression. It's just not a top 30 muni nationwide in my book although I do enjoy the layout in Spokane.

John C:

I misspoke -- the name of the wine expert is Robert Parker.

John, the idea that some sort of "panel" can have a better grasp on things flies in the face of the arguments I previously presented. Consensus thinking invariably means mega compromises and likely is the result of vote stacking from one area of the country to the detriment of other notable courses that are not on the beaten track. Too often the herd mentality takes control and you can see that front and center here on GCA with its ingrained preferences for certain architects and course types.

John, if I needed to play the other nine courses I'd be happy to see them provided the info I get from various sources gives me some good reason that my time spent there will not be in vain. Robert Parker is not celebrated in all quarters but the consistency of his reviews and the painstaking nature of how he gathers such info is what separates him from others. He has gained the most valuable of commodities -- credibility. That is what is missing from so many of these rating exercises with mega sized panels.

John, you missed my point previously. There are no hidden layouts that escape attention for long. Those who need to keep informed can gather more information now than ever before. The magazines seek to be somewhat democratic in their approach but when you spread the jelly so widely over the bread you can't really taste anything but the bread.

I will never claim ratings can be perfect or fool proof because opinion / subjectivity is at the heart of such efforts. However, consistency of thought and the wherewithal to play as many as possible would provide a much more solid base -- even if the conclusions proved false -- then this scattered gun hodge-podge approach now favored. That's one of the reasons why I have read very closely the individual comments from such people as Ron Whitten, Brad Klein, et al.

Hope the info I've provided helps explain things further.

[John_Conley]

Matt, I understand your points.  Please recognize that people can bring the wines to Robert Parker and it also should suffice for him to 'play just one hole' with a sample and understand 'the whole course'.  I fully understand everything you say and I too read the Whitten reviews and Klein's.

[Cliff Hamm]

Since they were left off the listing -- be interested in how people view the muni's in the Cape Cod area. Plenty of towns have there own courses and a few of them do have some noteworthy design elements. Dennis Pines comes to mind -- ditto Cranberry Valley in Harwich. Don't know if they would merit a national placement but wonder what others think.

Surprised you left out the Captains courses in Brewster.  Don't believe they are at the top but provide fun golf with plenty of options.  Haven't played Dennis Pines or Cranberry Valley in years but I don't believe they would rank that highly.  Played Hominy Hills, for example, years ago and thought it was much better. 

Shenecosset, Donald Ross in Groton, Ct. hasn't been mentioned.  Surprising because many on this board feel it is better than Triggs in Providence.  I'll take Triggs but Shenny is also quite good.  Also, Green Mountain in Killington, Vt deserves mention in New England.

Also, surprised that Lederach hasn't been mentioned.  Also, Makefield Highlands also in Pennsylvania.  Could go on and on...Muni golf like any other list has plenty of worthy candidates...

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Pardon me.

I forgot to include the likes of Captains in Brewster. The Cape is an interesting mixture of such muni's because you rarely get a high number of such courses in a very high traveled area - especially during summer months.

Cliff, you are right -- either of the choices make for fun golf for the non-affiliated player but likely would not crack an elite listing of the top 30 in the USA.

I do concur with you on Lederach. Innovative design because it runs completely counter to the staid designs that often dot the landscape in such a category.

[Kyle Harris]

Since they were left off the listing -- be interested in how people view the muni's in the Cape Cod area. Plenty of towns have there own courses and a few of them do have some noteworthy design elements. Dennis Pines comes to mind -- ditto Cranberry Valley in Harwich. Don't know if they would merit a national placement but wonder what others think.

Surprised you left out the Captains courses in Brewster.  Don't believe they are at the top but provide fun golf with plenty of options.  Haven't played Dennis Pines or Cranberry Valley in years but I don't believe they would rank that highly.  Played Hominy Hills, for example, years ago and thought it was much better. 

Shenecosset, Donald Ross in Groton, Ct. hasn't been mentioned.  Surprising because many on this board feel it is better than Triggs in Providence.  I'll take Triggs but Shenny is also quite good.  Also, Green Mountain in Killington, Vt deserves mention in New England.

Also, surprised that Lederach hasn't been mentioned.  Also, Makefield Highlands also in Pennsylvania.  Could go on and on...Muni golf like any other list has plenty of worthy candidates...

I am quite fond of Makefield Highlands. The course features a great balance of par 3s, some brutishly long par 4s and a few drivable par 4s. Couple that with a true 3 shot par 5 and two reachable par 5s and it makes for a fun day.

[J Sadowsky]

On more thought.  This is after talking to a bunch of people, as I haven't played all of these.  It is, also to some degree, from the comments in this thread.

Courses not included that should have been included:  Hominy Hill (6-10), Gold Mountain (6-10 for Olympic, 16-20 for Cascades), Pacific Grove  (10-15), Tanglewood Park (10-15), Richter Park (10-15), Breckenridge (20-30), Leslie Park (20-30), Harborside (Port) (20-30), The Vineyards (20-30).

Courses that are too low: Bethpage Red (about 5), Montauk Downs (5-10) Chaska Town (11-15).

Courses that are too high: Memorial Park, Bear Trace, the Indian Wells courses, Mount Pleasant (Greystone is miles better).

Also, odd that Greystone finished #5 in the best public courses in Maryland survey, but didn't make the list.  Mt. Pleasant doesn't make the top 10, still makes it.

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

Good call on a few layouts but I would not include Richter Park in Danbury, CT and The Vineyards (assume you mean the layout in south Jersey near AC). They are both very good but a top 30 placement for the USA is a bit of a stretch.

One further thing -- maybe someone else can comment - but as much as I concur on Montauk Downs I have always left there wondering just when do they (NY State) plan on improving the overall turf conditions there. Anytime you take putt you feel the need for a complete shoulder turn to get a 10-footer to the hole. If things truly have changed there I'd be happy to hear about it from someone who's played there this season.

If you need a replacement for Richter Park I'd also mention the likes of Spook Rock in Suffern, NY. The Frank Duane layout has been rated before among the top muni layouts in America.

Since you mentioned Tanglewood I would also add Bryan Park (Greensboro, NC) as a worthy choice -- the Champ course there will host the 2010 US Pub Links.

[J Sadowsky]

Vineyards I meant Cincinnati, OH (which I've played).

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

How much better is The Vineyard over Blue Ash or Glenview?