Golfweeks Best Munis

[Trey Kemp]

Bill-

Brackenridge in San Antonio, TX is currently closed for renovation and udergoing major changes to get the course back to the way Tillinghast originally had it.  I have some pictures of the grow in and can post them if you would like.  It should be pretty fun once its complete.

[JohnV]

"All of our ratings are pulled from one big fat data base of ratings. We then just cull for the course facility type,which in this case is all courses owned by a city/county/state jurisdiction, even if operated for the municipality at arm's length by a management company."


Brad, I play a pretty good course named Rustic Canyon.  Has it dropped that far?
It is owned by the County of Ventura.

Rustic Canyon got a 6.74 rating in the latest Modern Top 100 list which should put it 3rd on the list.

I'm a little surprised that Pacific Grove Muni didn't make it.

[Brad Klein]

Rustic Canyon is not a municipal golf course. The land is owned by Ventura County but is leased to a private operator/developer who controls the golf course. There's no residential rate differentiation. Nice try, Lynn, but as ar as I can tell it doesn't work here. If it did, we'd fess up our mistake and change the listing.

[Ryan Farrow]

Rustic Canyon is not a municipal golf course. The land is owned by Ventura County but is leased to a private operator/developer who controls the golf course. There's no residential rate differentiation. Nice try, Lynn, but as ar as I can tell it doesn't work here. If it did, we'd fess up our mistake and change the listing.

Yea i noticed that too, as an out of towner who got to play there for dirt cheap, just like the rest of the their residents. Doesnt seem like much a difference between Rustic and TPC Scottsdale. Besides the price and quality of the golf course.

[Kirk Gill]

Mr. Klein - I don't know what kind of information is in your databases. Is there a 'rat-ass' category ?   

I have no idea how one might go about trying to define one, but without knowing what criteria you record in your database, it's a total shot in the dark. Could it be done? Or has it already been done? Of course, there's probably a better name for the category.......

[Tim Leahy]

After last weekend who would not choose Torrey Pines South #1?

2nd answer.

Tim,

Which part of Bethpage Black and Chambers Bay don't you understand.
 

No ocean views or yearround play at those two. I'll take Torrey every time.

[John_Conley]

Mr. Klein - I don't know what kind of information is in your databases. Is there a 'rat-ass' category ?   

I have no idea how one might go about trying to define one, but without knowing what criteria you record in your database, it's a total shot in the dark. Could it be done? Or has it already been done? Of course, there's probably a better name for the category.......

Kirk, Golf Magazine has the Afforable list.  GOLFWEEK has the Municipal list.  Seems like you seek an intersection.  One problem though, Wilmington gets knocked out since it was designed by Ross.  Kind of hard to penalize a place because it WASN'T laid out by an obscure dude.

You can find lists in lots of flavors, just like ice cream.  That said, you can't order up Curry Caramel Cranberry.  Sometimes there's a reason.

[Garland Bayley]

After last weekend who would not choose Torrey Pines South #1?

2nd answer.

Tim,

Which part of Bethpage Black and Chambers Bay don't you understand.
 

No ocean views or yearround play at those two. I'll take Torrey every time.

Chambers Bay has year around play. Chambers Bay has arguably far superior views than Torrey Pines. However, golf is not about unplayable weather and views. Next you are going to tell me Torrey is better than Sand Hills.
 

[Forrest Richardson]

It was nice to see The Hideout gets some credit. I believe the green fee is now $22, which likely puts it way out front when the factor of dollars charged per ranking is calculated — but I am not sure anyone calculates that.

The issue of leasing versus ownership is tricky. I had forgot that Ventura County still retained ownership of the land at Rustic. I gather that a ground lease — e.g., when the ground itself is leased, not just the operation — prompts Golfweek to consider the course "owned" not by the public, but by the lessee. This is interesting.

A ground lease is, in fact, much more an ownership than a lease on management rights. For example, a bank will typically NOT lend as much against a lease right to operate as they will against a ground lease with rights to control the property.

I did find it funny that the TPC Scottsdale was listed — I have rarely ever spoken with a Scottsdale resident who has ever thought much of the residents' rights to the course — frankly, unless they have $150 to spend the TPC does not seem to want their business...unless, of course, 3:00pm on a Tuesday after green coring with six temporary holes and a carts-only policy.

[Brad Klein]

Forrest, there's a resident rate at TPC Scottsdale, and the city is an equity partner.

The folks on this Website can nitpick all day; we basically got this category right and we'll correct any cases where we didn't.

[Forrest Richardson]

Dr. Klein — I may be proved wrong, but I clearly recall that there are rarely (if ever) any Scottsdale resident rates for the TPC Stadium Course — only resident rates for the Desert (now known as the Champions) Course. This was the reason that the Desert (Champions) Course was created — and, by the way, why it was restricted to only 90 or so acres when the Stadium Course consumed much more.

This (setting rates under the guise of "residents") is a game — unfortunately not as friendly as golf itself — and my take is that the citizen is often dealt a very unfriendly hand. The TPC (Stadium) Scottsdale masquerades as a "municipal" course and I doubt you have much of a leg to stand on when you look deep into the facts.

Now, this takes nothing away from the design and its right to be on "top" lists — but I agree with those who say its place on a list of "municipal" courses is a stretch.

[Forrest Richardson]

I will add this, because I am just ticked off enough for such a post:

When it came time for the TPC to re-do the Desert Course the City of Scottsdale and the TPC bypassed the public process to advertise for professional services. I led the charge to get the City to — finally — acknowledge their mistake and seek professional proposals from qualified golf course architects. Unfortunately a few of my friends in the business did not get the word that the "favored" architect had already been hand-picked by the TPC and any attempt to propose was a worthless effort.

Does this sound like a municipal course? Certainly not. The City listened to the TPC and, behind closed doors, you can still imagine hearing such crass remarks as, "That's OK, we'll go through the proposal process and make 'em believe we've gone through a decision..."

I will add this tid-bit: When three firms (not me, I heard the decision has already been made) put forth some meaningful proposals, the City of Scottsdale did not even bother to hold interviews! They simply read through some very complex binders full of detailed schedules and credentials and apparebtly felt they knew enough to select...........drum roll..........the very team that the TPC had paraded in front of the City Council several months before the dramatic proposal process was forced upon them (the City and TPC).

Sour grapes? You bet. I pay taxes in Scottsdale. I deserve more than hand-fed government/behind-the-scenes deals involving lessees.

[Brad Klein]

Whatever the source of your resentment, Forrest, all that concerns us is whether there's a structural diference betweeen TPC Scottsdale- Champions Course and TPC Scottsdale-Stadium Course. If there's no resident rate and the PGA Tour owns the Stadium Course outright -- both of them different relations than Champions Course -- we'll address it.

By the way, as a resident of Phoenix with a business office there, do you really pay taxes in Scottsdale?

[Steve Lang]

 

We played Sheridan Park,  even though it was outrageously priced for us out of towners.. it was a good recommendation from gca.com..er's ..  while i won;t likely play it again,  it did have what i consider the essential muni quirk..  a place or hole in the fence where you can get or sneek out for some quick local food..

[Dan Herrmann]

Just curious (no agenda here!) - how many ratings are required for a course?

I remember a passage in Brad's book where he mentions how some raters won't play a course that doesn't have a chance to be in the top 100.    

(I have no issues with the list - just curious!)
--------------------
Steve - how much did Sheridan charge?  I thought it was under $45.  A 18 and under season pass is only $200 (it was $60 when I was a 18 year old way back in '78)

[Forrest Richardson]

Brad — I am no expert in the TPC rates. But, from what I have heard, the Stadium Course is usually a set rate with no advantage to residents...that falls to the Desert (Champions) Course mostly.

Resentment? I will always find it odd that land supposedly owned by the public is controlled by a few select people with an agenda that precludes creativity and "may the best idea win" mentality.

I have owned real estate in Scottsdale and I remain active in business ventures that pay dearly to the Scottsdale tax collectors. Also, I buy gas there and that alone costs me!

[Dan Herrmann]

PS - Where's Highlands Links? 

OK - it's run by Parks Canada (the federal government).

Also curious - is there a "best military" course list?   

[Jon Nolan]

Wingpointe is barely the best muni in the SLC system (total of about eight courses.)   I might take Bonneville over it although if Wingpointe's conditions were better it would get the nod.

That's an extremely bizarre selection IMO.

Sunbrook in St. George is a fine 27 holes (they picked the best two nines.)

[Doug Ralston]

Bethpage is a State Park, not City. So are state parks considered municiple? weather.com list them as municiple.

All I have gotten is snorting noises when I have said it, but let me try again. If State Parks are considered munis, the Kentucky has three(!) that easily should be on this list. For example, all are better that the #11, Ross Creek 'Bear', Nicklaus.

Another stupid list that shows no visits.

Varney and Clouser, get yourselves there and back me up, please!

Doug

PS: I have come to disrespect ranking courses about as much as Doak claims to ..... It seems more of an excuse to allow their 'raters' an opportunity to play name courses.  It certainly is pathetically short of comprehensive.

PSPS: Varney, I sent you a PM as I could not e-mail.

[John_Conley]

It certainly is pathetically short of comprehensive.

Wow, that is quite an allegation.  The process is anything but "short" of anything.  Courses are on the ballot, panelists see and evaluate, and data is sorted centrally.  Sure seems to be as comprehensive as possible.

Tennessee State Parks?  Interesting.  I doubt they were missed.  If they were eligible they didn't score high enough or maybe they aren't eligible.  Brad will probably respond.

The Trail courses in Alabama are probably not eligible for this since they are owned by the pension fund and not run by a city or county.  Aren't the Tennessee things like the Alabama things?

Stupid list?  Whatever you say.

[Ryan Farrow]

I would say the usefulness of this list is the "pathetic" part. On the other hand something like the state by state rankings seem a little more useful for the average Joe. A good piece would be to find the best munis "and" low cost public golf courses in each state, perhaps a hidden gems oriented list? Certainly not a computer generated one.

And if you look at the TPC Scottsdale's rate page, there is absolutely zero discount for residents. I would consider we-ko-pa more of a municipal course than the Stadium Course.

http://www.tpc.com/scottsdale/rates/index.html


Just my 2 cents.

[Doug Ralston]

It certainly is pathetically short of comprehensive.

Wow, that is quite an allegation.  The process is anything but "short" of anything.  Courses are on the ballot, panelists see and evaluate, and data is sorted centrally.  Sure seems to be as comprehensive as possible.

Tennessee State Parks?  Interesting.  I doubt they were missed.  If they were eligible they didn't score high enough or maybe they aren't eligible.  Brad will probably respond.

The Trail courses in Alabama are probably not eligible for this since they are owned by the pension fund and not run by a city or county.  Aren't the Tennessee things like the Alabama things?

Stupid list?  Whatever you say.

Can you read?

Does K-e-n-t-u-c-k-y spell Tennessee to you? I said a Tennessee course list #11 was not as good as at least 3 KY State Park courses. And I DO still alledge that no one came to KY to look at these courses, and that these lists are vastly short of comprehensive, and that many, many raters just play all the great names and review those same ones over and over because they often get access and cheap/free fees.

Just my opinion/guess, but what I have observed seems to indicate it fairly well.

Of course, what do I know about great courses? Maybe you had better come see for yourself and show me how much better said Nicklaus course is than my pathetic evals of KY State Park courses.

Otherwise, try not to kid me into to thinking these courses were looked at and rejected.

Doug

PS: For Forrest, $42 KY!

[Forrest Richardson]

I think there is great value in separating municipals for a list — but the nature of a municipal golf course is truly part cost to the golfer. Affordable does not include $150 green fees for residents, and I think that would/should cause some concern when they are referred to as "municipals" with rates (for residents) in that range.

[John_Conley]

Doug, I have no idea what you know about great golf courses.  You are defensive, but haven't been attacked.  Odd.

I don't read too well at night, especially when I'm watching the NHL Draft with one eye.  Sorry.  Tennessee, Kentucky...  I was thinking Tennessee because of the Bear Trail or whatever it is called.  I have no idea what you call the stuff in Kentucky.

I won't try to kid you into anything.  I can tell you there are 21 courses from Kentucky on the GOLFWEEK ballot and a mechanism exists to add other deserving courses.  What's the problem? 

Seems like the only problem is that some course you like didn't make the list.  I'm sure folks are just as much up in arms in New Smyrna Beach.

Audubon CC  1st (1/1/1921)  Louisville, KY 
Big Spring CC  1st (1/1/1926)  Louisville, KY 
Champions GC  1st (1/1/1988)  Lexington, KY 
Cherry Blossom G&CC  1st (1/1/2001)  Georgetown, KY 
Hurstbourne CC  1st (1/1/1966)  Lousiville, KY 
Idle Hour CC  1st (1/1/1924)  Lexington, KY 
Kearney Hills Golf Links  1st (1/1/1989)  Lexington, KY 
Lassing Pointe Golf Club  1st (1/1/1994)  Union, KY 
Louisville CC  1st (1/1/1928)  Louisville, KY 
Mineral Mound State Park GC  1st (1/1/2002)  Eddyville, KY 
Old Silo GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Mount Sterling, KY 
Olde Stone  1st (1/1/2006)  Bowling Green, KY 
Persimmon Ridge  1st (1/1/1989)  Louisville, KY 
Quail Chase GC  1st (1/1/1989)  Louisville, KY 
Raven Rock GC  1st (1/1/2004)  Jenkins, KY 
StoneCrest GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Prestonsburg, KY 
The Peninsula  1st (1/1/1997)  Lancaster, KY 
Traditions  1st (1/1/1992)  Hebron, KY 
Triple Crown  1st (1/1/1990)  Union, KY 
Valhalla GC  1st (1/1/1986)  Louisville, KY 
Wasioto Winds GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Pineville, KY 

How would you improve Dr. Klein's methodology for compiling such lists?  Seems like every time someone has a complaint about the result they say the process should run a certain way.

And every time they describe the way it does.

Are you suggesting that all 450 raters be required to go tour these courses?  That's not happening.  Some have seen them and that's enough.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug, I have no idea what you know about great golf courses.  You are defensive, but haven't been attacked.  Odd.

I don't read too well at night, especially when I'm watching the NHL Draft with one eye.  Sorry.  Tennessee, Kentucky...  I was thinking Tennessee because of the Bear Trail or whatever it is called.  I have no idea what you call the stuff in Kentucky.

I won't try to kid you into anything.  I can tell you there are 21 courses from Kentucky on the GOLFWEEK ballot and a mechanism exists to add other deserving courses.  What's the problem? 

Seems like the only problem is that some course you like didn't make the list.  I'm sure folks are just as much up in arms in New Smyrna Beach.

Audubon CC  1st (1/1/1921)  Louisville, KY 
Big Spring CC  1st (1/1/1926)  Louisville, KY 
Champions GC  1st (1/1/1988)  Lexington, KY 
Cherry Blossom G&CC  1st (1/1/2001)  Georgetown, KY 
Hurstbourne CC  1st (1/1/1966)  Lousiville, KY 
Idle Hour CC  1st (1/1/1924)  Lexington, KY 
Kearney Hills Golf Links  1st (1/1/1989)  Lexington, KY 
Lassing Pointe Golf Club  1st (1/1/1994)  Union, KY 
Louisville CC  1st (1/1/1928)  Louisville, KY 
Mineral Mound State Park GC  1st (1/1/2002)  Eddyville, KY 
Old Silo GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Mount Sterling, KY 
Olde Stone  1st (1/1/2006)  Bowling Green, KY 
Persimmon Ridge  1st (1/1/1989)  Louisville, KY 
Quail Chase GC  1st (1/1/1989)  Louisville, KY 
Raven Rock GC  1st (1/1/2004)  Jenkins, KY 
StoneCrest GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Prestonsburg, KY 
The Peninsula  1st (1/1/1997)  Lancaster, KY 
Traditions  1st (1/1/1992)  Hebron, KY 
Triple Crown  1st (1/1/1990)  Union, KY 
Valhalla GC  1st (1/1/1986)  Louisville, KY 
Wasioto Winds GC  1st (1/1/2001)  Pineville, KY 

How would you improve Dr. Klein's methodology for compiling such lists?  Seems like every time someone has a complaint about the result they say the process should run a certain way.

And every time they describe the way it does.

Are you suggesting that all 450 raters be required to go tour these courses?  That's not happening.  Some have seen them and that's enough.

John, you do seem to have a list, though the three courses I was referring to are not on it. Wasioto Winds and Mineral Mound are on the KY State Park Signature Series, but they are not the best. The list contains some pretty good publics, and some not very good at all.

So how DO you get a course upon that list, and ascertain a rating visit? How did they? Would a contact/invite from a course Pro do it?

Doug

Doug