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Matt_Ward

My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« on: June 18, 2008, 02:08:16 PM »
I often get comments from people to post my top courses I have played and often times I won't provide a thorough listing but the listing by The Met Golfer of the greater NYC's 50 top courses made me want to really study and think about the ones I would choose.

Given the reality how others are often tarred and feathered I decided to jump full tilt into the pond of GCA with my own listing.

Please keep in mind you will not find Friar's Head listed simply because I have not played the course to date.

So here goes -- more than willing to hear the comments provided those making them are prepared to hear my retorts.

By the way -- one further thing -- courses are listed alphabetically and in groupings of ten. And, given the strength of the area's courses -- only one public course cracked my listing -- Bethpage Black.


TOP TEN
 
Bayonne (NJ)
Bethpage / Black (NY)
Fisher's Island (NY)
Garden City GC (NY)
NGLA (NY)
Plainfield (NJ)
Sebonack (NY)
Shinnecock Hills (NY)
Westchester / West (NY)
Winged Foot / West (NY)

 
SECOND TEN
 
Essex County CC (NJ)
Fenway (NY)
Forsgate / Banks (NJ)
Hollywood (NJ)
Montclair #2 & #4 (NJ)
Piping Rock (NY)
Quaker Ridge (NY)
Sleepy Hollow (NY)
Trump National / Bedminster (NJ)
Winged Foot / East (NY)
 

THIRD TEN
 
Atlantic
Baltusrol / Lower (NJ)
The Creek Club
Engineers (NY)
CC of Fairfield (CT)
Maidstone (NY)
Metropolis (NY)
Ridgewood / E&W (NJ)
Wykagyl (NY)
Yale (CT)


FOURTH TEN
 
Baltusrol / Upper (NJ)
Deepdale (NY)
CC of Fairfield (CT)
Meadowbrook (NY)
Mountain Ridge (NJ)
Old Oaks (NY)
Somerset Hills (NJ)
The Stanwich Club (CT)
Wee Burn (CT)
Whippoorwill (NY)

 
FIFTH TEN

Alpine (NJ)
The Bridge (NY)
Canoe Brook / North (NJ)
Hamilton Farm (NJ)
Hudson National (NY)
Manasquan River (NJ)
Metedeconk National / 1st & 3rd Nines (NJ)
Morris County (NJ)
Seawane (NY)
The Tuxedo Club (NY)





Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 02:27:11 PM »
Are there two courses at the CC of Fairfield? I have never been there and you list one in the third ten and one in the fourth. Winged Foot West and East are differentiated as is Baltusrol Upper and Lower. Just curious.
Mr Hurricane

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 02:49:38 PM »
You missed Round Hill and Century. What are your thoughts on Blind Brook?

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 03:37:03 PM »

Matt

Is your Sleepy evaluation post Bahto-Hanse? Work continues and at a minimum, it is the best walk in Westchester County.  Our green chairman George Sanossian is the subject of an interview with Ran which will be posted soon.

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 04:19:15 PM »
SPDB:

I did not miss Round Hill or Century. I like both of them but there have been improvements with a number of courses that receive little attention -- e.g. Seawane, which comes quickly to mind. I also like Blind Brook but it's more of a sporty course that drew plenty of attention because of the link to Ike.

Let me ask you a question -- do you see Round Hill or Century being better than another CT layout like Brooklawn? I don't know if you have been to Wee Burn recently but the upgraded layout there is quite good for what it offers.

Jim F:

My error on CC of Fairfield. I will need to re-calculate the listing as there is only one 18 there.
Thanks for noticing and bringing to my attention.

Corey:

Have not been back to SH since the work of Bahto/Hanse but if it happens to be better than what I have seen from years ago than clearly it's stock can only rise further.

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 07:26:58 PM »
The changes to CC of Fairfield have been made ...

SPDB, thanks for suggesting Century. I added it to the list to make up for the duplication with CC of Fairfield previously. Clearly, the layout in Purchase is worth including.

I'll be most interested in seeing the work Pete Dye has done with the new Pound Ridge. The official opening is set for July 1.


TOP TEN
 
Bayonne (NJ)
Bethpage / Black (NY)
Fisher's Island (NY)
Garden City GC (NY)
NGLA (NY)
Plainfield (NJ)
Sebonack (NY)
Shinnecock Hills (NY)
Westchester / West (NY)
Winged Foot / West (NY)

 
SECOND TEN
 
Essex County CC (NJ)
Fenway (NY)
Forsgate / Banks (NJ)
Hollywood (NJ)
Montclair #2 & #4 (NJ)
Piping Rock (NY)
Quaker Ridge (NY)
Sleepy Hollow (NY)
Trump National / Bedminster (NJ)
Winged Foot / East (NY)
 

THIRD TEN
 
Atlantic (NY)
Baltusrol / Lower (NJ)
The Creek Club
Engineers (NY)
CC of Fairfield (CT)
Maidstone (NY)
Metropolis (NY)
Ridgewood / E&W (NJ)
Wykagyl (NY)
Yale (CT)


FOURTH TEN
 
Baltusrol / Upper (NJ)
Century (NY)
Deepdale (NY)
Meadowbrook (NY)
Mountain Ridge (NJ)
Old Oaks (NY)
Somerset Hills (NJ)
The Stanwich Club (CT)
Wee Burn (CT)
Whippoorwill (NY)

 
FIFTH TEN

Alpine (NJ)
The Bridge (NY)
Canoe Brook / North (NJ)
Hamilton Farm (NJ)
Hudson National (NY)
Manasquan River (NJ)
Metedeconk National / 1st & 3rd Nines (NJ)
Morris County (NJ)
Seawane (NY)
The Tuxedo Club (NY)


Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 08:06:19 PM »
Matt Ward,

Where's the love for Hackensack ? ;D ;D

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 08:10:00 PM »
Pat:

Tough call.

I like the Banks layout -- you can see Banks has a clear role in my selection for other layouts he did.

Keep in mind, Rees Jones did some nice upgrading of the place a few years back. I see plenty of similarities with a few of the holes -- witness the opening par-5's on both sides are fairly even to each other from a design perspective.

The other thing to keep in mind is that some of the more obscure layouts to some (e.g. Seawane, being one that comes to mind) have made major improvements to their overall layouts. All in all, Hackensack is a borderline line and likely would be included with other listings from those who have been able to play a wide smattering of courses throughout the NYC metro area.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 08:23:50 PM »
Matt,

Would you rather play Deepdale every day or Hackensack every day ?

And, what about Westhampton ?
Surely you can't prefer Deepdale and some of the others to Westhampton, can you ? ;D

The Knoll also comes to mind, especially in the context of playing it every day.

I know your feelings on the Town of Parsippany's conditioning efforts, but the layout, the architecture, the routing and the individual features are spectacular.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 08:45:25 PM »
Can't really quibble with the list too much. The inclusion of Tuxedo is dubious. Heck, I would even include Pine Barrens above Tuxedo, and it would add the company of a public to BB that you so desperately desire.

Round Hill should be included, and, yes, I would rate it higher than Brooklawn and probably a smidge higher than Wee Burn.

Can you or anyone tell me about Wykagyl post C&C?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:06:41 PM by SPDB »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 10:33:49 PM »
Are you leaving out Friars Head for a reason?

Jim Nugent

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 12:00:29 AM »
Jeff, Matt said in his first post he has not played Friar's Head.

Matt -- how many of these courses make your top 100 in the U.S.?  Top 50?  Top 10?

Thomas MacWood

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 09:44:10 AM »
IMO Yale and Maidstone are terribly underrated. Forsgate slightly overrated. You don't like Inwood? I was also impressed by St. Georges and Huntington, especially Huntington.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 09:46:45 AM »
Very impressive, Matt.  Thanks for taking the time to prepare the list.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 10:21:02 AM »
Good work Matt. I have a question though. While I have not played it, how good is Mansion Ridge? I was talking to a friend the other day and he was raving about. (i think that is the name of the course, I do know it is Mansion something).
Mr Hurricane

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 10:52:07 AM »
Matt, Have you played Huntington C C. A Dev Emmet 1910?

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 11:29:42 AM »
Pat:

The Knoll is not upgraded and frankly is more of a work-in-progress situation. I love the course but I don't rate my favorites based on what they might be. I rate on what they are now. Big difference to me. When the work of George Bahto is completed the full glory of The Knoll / West will be restored. At that time it will be back on my radar screen. However, it would be a major disservice to the other courses that have completed work and done well in doing it.

In regards to your comments on Deepdale v Westhampton -- that's a question of tastes. I prefer the Manhasset layout. I also see the LI design from Dick Wilson being ahead of Hackensack -- Pat, keep in mind, some courses will invariably fall out of the top 50 -- not just mine but yours or anyone else's for that matter. I am a big fan of Banks work and my listign does include several of them. Just not Hackensack for a top 50 inclusion.

Tom MacWood:

Glad to see you are still alive and participating here. Cuople of quick comments -- your mentioning of Inwood is a good one but the finished work at Seawane is worth just a bit more to me than it's rival nearby. If history alone were the criteria then Inwood would be there after hosting both the US Open and PGA. Stephen Kay's work at Seawane is well done and has brought back to life this gem in Hewlett Harbor.

In regards to Yale -- the turf conditions have improved but not so dramatically to my liking. Let me also point out there are a few holes on the inward nine at Yale that I find to be rather pedestrian when compared to the others.

You mentioned Maidstone and I find the place to be vastly overrated in various national polls. Here is a layout that benefits in having big time neighbors nearby -- e.g. SH, NGLA, Sebonack, etc, etc. I don't see the opening and closing holes as compelling architecture of the highest order and although I am a huge fan of the 9th and 14th holes I see much of Maidstone as being a little short of consistent and compelling architecture throughout the round.

Let's talk about Forsgate / Banks shall we. Don't know if you have played it recently but the layout has been significantly upgraded through the work of its new ownership group. All of the four par-3's are gems -- only Pine Valley quartet exceeds them IMHO and the overall upgrading of turf and day-to-day maintenance practices have truly elevated what Banks originally created. Ditto the fantastic restoration of the Biarritz hole at #17.

Don't have issue with St. George and / or Huntington and it's possible that one or both could crack through the remaining few spots at the rear of the list.

SPDB:

You say Tuxedo is dubious - what about the opening series of holes to begin the round? RTJ is often downgraded on GCA for a host of reasons -- I find his work at Tuxedo to be quite pleasant and the architecture engaging without being so utterly predictable as so many of his other designs.

Also, if you think Pine Barrens can make a top 50 metro NYC listing then you need to really see Ballyowen if public is your push. I didn't "desperately desire" to want to add another public layout because as I said at the outset the depth of private layouts in the overall region is likely the strongest in the nation.

We agree to disagree about Round Hill -- and you need to play / see what's been done at Wee Burn.

Last thing -- Wykagyl has benefited immensely from the C&C involvement. The layout was always there but the profusion of trees and the narrow nature of too many holes had in my mind really constricted the architectural qualities that were always there. If you have not been there recently by all means put it on your calendar.

Jim F:

Mansion Ridge is a nicely done daily fee layout from Team Nicklaus. If your friend is raving about it then I have to ask how many other top public courses within the greater NYC metro area has he played. Is it better than Ballyowen -- which I see as North Jersey's best public course? No. Is Mansion Ridge better than Centennial -- the upscale layout directly across the Hudson in Carmel? No. Is it better than what Stephen Kay did with The Links at Unionvale? No.

Mansion Ridge is built on a hilly site -- and there are a few holes of note -- the concluding hole, a 480+ par-4, brings you back to the clubhouse in fine fashion. Yet, the green designs are rather matter-of-fact save for a few. 

If I created a top 50 public listing for the same region there's no doubt Mansion Ridge would be on it. It's likely placement might challenge for a top 10 position but I would need to really think about that before saying so conclusively.

tlavin

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 12:23:28 PM »
This list alone is a compelling reason to move to the Metro Area.  Wow.

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 03:51:28 PM »
Terry, first you would have to pass the NY bar.  I hear its quite challenging!

I have lived in this area all my life and we are incredibly lucky. Matt has a couple of courses in the first two groups that I would barely find room for on the list, but that's what makes horse races.   A quick word on my home course, Quaker Ridge. A renaissance is underway and there is a very good possibility that Quaker will, in the next several years, achieve a level of maintenance that, for the first time in my experience, equates to the level of architectural achievement present in the course. Many kudos to our new Superintendent and Green Chair and to Gil Hanse, who has been assisting them.   

Also, to those of you surprised by the mention of Bayonne in such impressive company.  It is worthy. Quite a place.

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 05:14:22 PM »
Jeff:

Thanks for your comments and seconding of Bayonne. For all the talk and hype that places like Shadow Creek get the work carried forward by Eric Bergstol there is well worth saluting and I would not place it among such an elite gathering of courses if the only aspect of the place was its construction. Eric has done well with a slew of marvelous holes located on property.

I'd be interested when you say there are a few courses in my first two groupings that would barely make or even not make your own listings. For disclosure purposes it would help if you can illuminate which ones you are speaking about. Try to realize this - a number of my choices came about because of fairly recent efforts by the respective clubs themselves to upgrade an dimprove upon the architecture that was there -- but was hidden or held back because of past omissions / errors.

Be very much interested in what shakes out with QR. I've always liked the course and if the momentum is present to take it to an even higher level then kudos to those spearheading the effort.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 05:17:52 PM »
Matt:

   Solid list. Highly accurate (save for a flip of Mountain Ridge over either Wykagyl or Metropolis...especially post restorations at each ;D). Having just seen Quaker Ridge recently, I'd 100% concure with Jeff Lewis. Finally, maintenance levels are rising dramatically and serve to highlight the course's architecture.

   Had you been able to play Friars Head, I'd guess that it would handily displace Westchester/West. Thanks for your take!

S

PS...I too put Bayonne in the top ten upon it's opening...just wait until you hear from Tom Doak how it is no better than a Doak "6" ::)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 05:21:16 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 05:30:18 PM »
Has anyone played both Bayonne and Chambers Bay?  How do they compare ?

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 05:38:02 PM »
Sean:

I have not played both but can say this regarding Bayonne.

The Hudson County NJ site is quite small -- although Eric Bergstol made it a point to separate holes and to make sure that off-course views from the Jersey side were blocked by mounds in almost all instances. You do get views of the NY harbor area but it's no where near the intensity you get from nearby Liberty National although the layout there is primarily geared towards length and difficulty.

Hats off to Bergstol as well in getting the most out of such a piece of land. When playing the course you never get the sense that you are located in one of the most densely populated counties in all of the USA.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 07:43:48 PM »
Sean L:

I haven't played either Bayonne OR Chambers Bay, but I've walked both of them.

The main differences are that Chambers Bay is twice as wide, and Bayonne's earthworks are at least twice as high.

Matt's tastes and my own are quite different, but I'm already on the record about most of these courses, and apparently some people are still sensitive about how I might rank some of the newer ones.  ;)

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 12:33:15 PM »
Tom D:

While I can respect the fact that you and others may have "walked" courses in question the real issue comes down to the next step and that's actually playing them. No doubt your specific eyes are more attuned to certain things that others but when you play a course you go from what you think might happen to what can and does happen.