[Bob_Huntley]

Gentlemen,

More years ago than I care to remember, I had a classics master teaching Greek, who when confronted with school boy passions and personal feuds reminded us of the word "irenic."  You can look it up,  it was all about reconciliation. I do wish that we could do that here.

At least let us try.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"To see people here who I respect having more sympathy for David than for a guy like Wayne who has been so generous with his time, so generous in his help of those visiting town, and so generous in his sharing of his voluminous broad-based research that dwarfs the teeny-weeny agenda-driven, positivist paper that David wrote is simply unfathomable."


Michael Cirba:

WHO-HA, that's a pretty strong brew to serve. Even I might not say that. The fact it's the total truth is secondary. But you know, that's the deal, it really is. We just can't understand how or why so many on here would buy that specious garbage he put out there. In his defense all I can say is he really was dealing with about half the information on the subject and that put him and would put anyone else behind the 8-ball----ie anyone really should come to the club first and/or those who know most about it. But to me it's not the essay, it's the instransigence on his part that followed. I know, I know, we haven't produced the MCC documents but we will---just give it some time. If, at that point Moriarty is still singing the same old songs about the accuracy of his essay and a good slice of this website is still agreeing with it both Wayno and I really will be out of here and you should follow because what the's the point really---that really will be the epitome of denial?

[TEPaul]

Bradley. If Wodehouse used the word "golfish" I will deny for now and for all time to come I ever said it sounded "mall-chickish".

I will be mowing at first light tomorrow---the hay is getting a bit longish.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm not a fan of you are smarter than me, you know than me defense. Make your case. 

Tom -

No. I've made my case -- or stated my opinions if you prefer -- several times on various threads; and all your questions have been answered, if not by me then by others. I won't go through it again. Why? Because  you're starting to get me annoyed and angry. You manifest a certain unpleasent tendency, i.e. when posters state their opinions forcefully, you back down or ignore them; but when we offer opinions with a little more humility, you start playing rhetorical games and talking "tough". I guess you don't realize how funny the tough talk is coming from a golf course historian, or how it would strike someone like me. But I don't come to golfclubatlas to get annoyed or angry, so let's just leave it at that.

Peter

[TEPaul]

Peter, Tom, Kirk Gill or anyone out there who is aware of this kind of tendency ("I am smarter or better at research or anaylsis than you offense or defense) and is concerned about it----let's get a grip and a lid on it right now. There is no question at all this is exactly the way ALL those Merion threads started to devolve out of control over five years ago!

If you don't believe me I will pull some of them back up and show everyone exactly how and where and why that happened. We sure don't need more of that rancor and that is precisely how it first began----eg the implication that someone is a better researcher/analyst than someone else.

[John Kavanaugh]

To see people here who I respect having more sympathy for David than for a guy like Wayne who has been so generous with his time, so generous in his help of those visiting town, and so generous in his sharing of his voluminous broad-based research that dwarfs the teeny-weeny agenda-driven, positivist paper that David wrote is simply unfathomable.

Mike,

I have never seen a more transparent quote in my life.  You really need to step back and see how your quest to access courses where you do not belong is controlling your life.  How many friends, relationships and employment opportunities are you going to lose before you wake up and smell a green fee?

[Mike_Cirba]

This argument is asinine.

I'm calling for a moratorium on any further Merion "origin" discussion until such time that new evidence actually surfaces, if ever.

This has been the biggest waste of time and testosterone ever on GCA, and what little we've learned has been dwarfed by the agonizingly frustrating attempts to actually discuss and debate this issue.

David Moriarty and Tom MacWood have stated their opinions, with support from Patrick Mucci, Ran, Shivas, and probably a few others who I'm not recalling at the moment.

Some of us have stated our opinions.

There is nothing further to be argued...nothing more to be said that can be productive here.

I see attempts to suck guys like Steve Shaffer and Peter Palotta into a deeper hole of linguistic linguini and I'm warning from experience that no good can come of it.

Let's move on.

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne's departure could end up being a poor reflection on Wayne? David is doing what he does, arguing his case. With Wayne gone, David has the floor. Despite the rancor, the process is exactly what open discourse should be.

Wayne, Don't leave.

They'll vote with Potter, otherwise

Agree on the Moriaritytorium.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I have never seen a more transparent quote in my life.  You really need to step back and see how your quest to access courses where you do not belong is controlling your life.  How many friends, relationships and employment opportunities are you going to lose before you wake up and smell a green fee?

John,

You are a sick, twisted bastard who has not a clue about my life.

I've asked you repeatedly to leave me alone.

Twice in the past month I've driven 3 hours each way to pay $100+ green fees at Bedford Springs in western PA and Lake Presidential near DC.   That you consider any of this your business is proof of your narcissism and arrogance.

Stay the f*ck out of my life and away from my posts.

If you're trying to drive me from this site, you won't succeed.

[Kalen Braley]

Melyvn,

Are you still reading this thread?  If so, do you see how futile it is to ask the main players in these threads to stop, put it on the back burner, and cool off?

Everyone cares, they really do.  Many have pleaded for them to stop, yet they continue on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

Its like a virus that infects half the threads in here and thats likely what most people have a beef with.  If it was contained a little better, perhaps we'd just let them have thier little corner of cyberspace and duke it out.  But this is not so!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Kalen,

See above...some of us have been begging for this to stop.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

I have never seen a more transparent quote in my life.  You really need to step back and see how your quest to access courses where you do not belong is controlling your life.  How many friends, relationships and employment opportunities are you going to lose before you wake up and smell a green fee?

John,

You are a sick, twisted bastard who has not a clue about my life.

I've asked you repeatedly to leave me alone.

Twice in the past month I've driven 3 hours each way to pay $100+ green fees at Bedford Springs in western PA and Lake Presidential near DC.   That you consider any of this your business is proof of your narcissism and arrogance.

Stay the f*ck out of my life and away from my posts.

If you're trying to drive me from this site, you won't succeed.

Mike,

You are the one who said Wayne is a better man than David because he gets people on a great private course when they are in town.  David has been very generous to me each time I visit LA.  Sure we only meet and play a public course but that is not how I measure the worth of a friend.

[tlavin]

Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but I can see merit in the positions of each of the enemy combatants.  I can also see the passion that each is bringing to this forum.  I am also aware of the collective hand-wringing that has ensued as a result of various people taking sides with one person or another.  Finally, I have seen the hue and cry of people who are peeved that not everybody has chosen to "go with" one participant or another.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but eventually, somebody has to break up the dogfight and declare a truce.  The hand-wringing has become more than a bit tedious, even if one acknowledges the obvious that one need not become engaged in this imbroglio and can easily avoid the conflict by going to other threads.

Problem is, this is the discussion group equivalent of a train wreck and we all know people can't take their eyes off a train wreck.

[Mike_Cirba]

That is not what I said John.

For the last time, leave me alone.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

See above...some of us have been begging for this to stop.

Mike,

I'd agree that at least you have been trying to get everyone to chill out and many of us appreciate that. 

Unfortunatly, it continues on and really just goes to show that it doesn't really matter what the rest of us say and do, even from someone like you who these guys may actually listen to.  At this point, Ran is the only one who can put an end to this I think.

[John Kavanaugh]

That is not what I said John.

For the last time, leave me alone.

Mike,

I will make a deal with you.  I will never talk to you or comment about your life on anything but a Merion thread.  Keep starting and posting on these threads and you are fair game.

[Mike_Cirba]

That is not what I said John.

For the last time, leave me alone.

Mike,

I will make a deal with you.  I will never talk to you or comment about your life on anything but a Merion thread.  Keep starting and posting on these threads and you are fair game.

Screw you, John.

You don't make the rules around here.

Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone, as I have been for a long time, except now and then trying to perhaps add a complimentary or encouraging word to you when you've posted something actually insightful and not purposefully hurtful.

I have no wish to discuss a damn thing with you ever again.

Leave me alone

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

When Cobb's Creek builds a statue of you in front of the clubhouse will I be invited to the dedication?

[Kalen Braley]

For f$&*'s sake John.

Must you antagonize everyone all the time?  Can't you give it a rest at least some of the time? Is it possible for someone to respect someone like Wayne without having to question alterior motives?

Can you please cease and desist from adding to this mess and try to be constructive at least part of the time?  Hell we all know you can build a good road, but can you try to build some good comraderie and brothership in here instead of tearing it down?

[John Kavanaugh]

For f$&*'s sake John.

Must you antagonize everyone all the time?  Can't you give it a rest at least some of the time? Is it possible for someone to respect someone like Wayne without having to question alterior motives?

Can you please cease and desist from adding to this mess and try to be constructive at least part of the time?  Hell we all know you can build a good road, but can you try to build some good comraderie and brothership in here instead of tearing it down?

Kalen,

If someone said this about a friend of yours would you let it go? 

"To see people here who I respect having more sympathy for David than for a guy like Wayne who has been so generous with his time, so generous in his help of those visiting town, and so generous in his sharing of his voluminous broad-based research that dwarfs the teeny-weeny agenda-driven, positivist paper that David wrote is simply unfathomable."

Every word of the above reveals the dirty secret about GCA some of us have been fighting for years.  Some peoples opinions are 90% access and 10% location.  Given the price of fuel location becomes more important every day.

[TEPaul]

I did not realize until today that The Great Merion Championship BOUT is so large it actually has an UNDERCARD bout going on. Do we need some really good championship referees on here or some really good professional sociologists, or perhaps both? 

I saw that wingnut Dr Katz on here a day or so ago but he ain't worth his weight in salt to resolve anything.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

I suspect, though he can clarify, that Mike has known Wayne for awhile now and has likely already been invited to play many great courses.  So what does Mike really have to additionally gain from this if his intentions are as you stated? 

I don't know Wayne, but everything I've heard is that he really is a generous guy, and really does enjoy sharing what he has with others.  What is so wrong with that when its the truth? All I see here is one friend going to bat for another when his integrity has been questioned by another.

But lets get down to the real issue here:

There is a concept in pyschology where we throw our own biases and notions upon others in terms of how we see the world and therefore think everyone sees the world the same way.  The irnoic part is by your potraying Mike in this light, all you are doing is giving everyone a window into your mind of how you really feel about these things.  These are your biases and thoughts, not his. This is really just all about you JK, its got nothing to do with Mike and what he said.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

It's not about access, it's about scholarship, good or bad, and it's about the historical accuracy of the architectural history a great golf club. If someone like you wants to make it about playing access that's a whole different ball game but that has never been remotely connected to the Merion threads. The far larger "access" issue which seems to be constantly pushed by David Moriarty isn't remotely about playing access it's about access to a club's internal information.

Now, John, go build a really cool straight road somewhere and I'm going to go mow a field and commune with the bugs. After that I'm going to get in my car with Mark Petersen and drive to Pittsburgh and put my really big "access foot" squarely into Oakmont's door. 

[TEPaul]

"The irnoic part..."

Kalen:

Is "irnoic" some kind of early American Indian word? It sounds cool--what does it mean?

[JC Jones]

Not sure if this is the right forum or not, but now that Wayne is gone, is there anyone that can get me onto Merion?




 

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