[Thomas MacWood]

Steve
You made quite few statements there. Did CB Macdonald write about his other consultations?

Based upon your research of the early years who in your view designed Merion? What role did Macdonald play?

What is your feeling about the timing of Wilson's trip to the UK?

Did you complain to Ran about his 'excellent' description? What do you make of Ran's architectural and historical accumin?


Tom,

Do you think that CBM only consulted on the routing of Merion,or are you with David M in asserting that he must have routed Merion because Wilson didn't route Merion?

Where did David write CBM must have routed Merion?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike C - ah hell, I guess I've got nothing better to do, at least not right at this moment.

Tom M - please, please stop asking people what they think about the timing of the Wilson trip. No less a thinker and writer and gentleman than Mr. Bob Crosby (philosopher, lawyer, man for all seasons, and my hero) answered that question -- and refuted the logic of the underlying assumptions -- a few days ago; and needless to say, he answered it well, and in my opinion definitively. As you know, no one at the time of Merion's design and construction -- including all those who credited Wilson with that design -- made any such trip to the UK by Wilson a prerequisite, nor did they use it as an explanation. And really, this "if his brother got that part wrong then his whole report falls apart" line of thinking is really beneath you. 

Peter 
(sorry, Tom, I used the wrong intial for your last name again; made it right now)

[Mike_Cirba]

"Further, Macdonald and Whigham had sent their advice as to what could be done with the land in a letter, so at the NGLA meeting they were all likely working out the particulars of the golf holes that Macdonald and Whigham had envisioned. "  

Please let's not mince words to suggest that David never said M&W didn't route Merion.

Please, Tom...this is so stupid.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike C - ah hell, I guess I've got nothing better to do, at least not right at this moment.

Tom W - please, pease stop asking people what they think about the timing of the Wilson trip. No less a thinker and writer and gentleman than Mr. Bob Crosby (philosopher, lawyer, man for all seasons, and my hero) answered that question -- and refuted the logic of the underlying assumptions -- a few days ago; and needless to say, he answered it well, and in my opinion definitively. As you know, no one at the time of Merion's design and construction -- including all those who credited Wilson with that design -- made any such trip to the UK by Wilson a prerequisite, nor did they use it as an explanation. And really, this "if his brother got that part wrong then his whole report falls apart" line of thinking is really beneath you. 

Peter 

Peter
I don't recall Bob's opinion. What did he say?

Yesterday I spoke with a person familar with the West course at Merion, and he agreed with Mike Cirba, that the course is significantly weaker than the East. In his opinion it is not a well designed golf course. I believe Wilson's next design was Seaview, which was remodelled two years after he completed it by Donald Ross and Wilfred Reid. Do you believe Hugh Wilson was capable of designing one of the great courses in America in 1912? Why or why not?

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom MacWood,

Where did David say who did route Merion?

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter
I don't recall Bob's opinion. What did he say?

Yesterday I spoke with a person familar with the West course at Merion, and he agreed with Mike Cirba, that the course is significantly weaker than the East. In his opinion it is not a well designed golf course. I believe Wilson's next design was Seaview, which was remodelled two years after he completed it by Donald Ross and Wilfred Reid. Do you believe Hugh Wilson was capable of designing one of the great courses in America in 1912? Why or why not?

Tom,

My god man...do you hear yourself?

Now you're going to try to turn it around to suggest because the West course, built as an overflow course, and Seaview, which simply had some bunkering added by others while Wilson was too busy with business were not up to the standard of the East course as we know it today somehow makes Wilson a feeble architect?

Peter Palotta is right...you're way better than this.

Whatever somewhat understandable bitterness you might have with Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison has really affected you in a very negative way and I'm personally very sorry to see it.

[Thomas MacWood]

"Further, Macdonald and Whigham had sent their advice as to what could be done with the land in a letter, so at the NGLA meeting they were all likely working out the particulars of the golf holes that Macdonald and Whigham had envisioned. "  

Please let's not mince words to suggest that David never said M&W didn't route Merion.

Please, Tom...this is so stupid.

You are right. He definitely wrote M&W routed Merion, and no doubt DM is mistaken that M&W would have had any influence upon the use of the protypical holes, especially since Wilson studied abroad in 1910.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

We've both said enough.

I really appreciate our past dialogues, I've learned a great deal from you, and I think we share an equal passion for the subject.

Further discussion with you on this topic is simply digging a deeper hole to Hell.

Let's move on before the damage is irreparable, if it isn't already.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I said it was stylistically/aesthetically similar to British courses. I wrote the other day: "By the way I never said the West was the better of the two courses. Only that it exhibited a modern architectural aesthetic, not unlike the British model at the time, more so than the original East did. And that by the end of the process the East began to look very much like the West, from a stylistic point of view."

How good was Cobbs Creek? You pointed out the West was a 4 on the Doak scale. Is Cobbs better than Merion West?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom -

the short answer is "yes". First, because I believe that in those relatively early days of American golf course architecture the dedicated and hard-working and golf-playing amateur designer could, on occasion and depending on the site, produce something special -- even if we're assuming that the earliest iteration of Merion East was all that special. Second, because I've read some of the roughly contemperaneous accounts, and some of the Wilson report, and I have never read any convincing argument as to why I shouldn't take those accounts/report at face value; nor do I have any reason to believe that the men who gave Wilson credit were lying or had any reason to lie. Third, because Mr. Macdonald was no shrinking violet, and it was a small community of men these wealthy amateur-sportsmen, and that no one ever until Mr. Whigham at the time of CB's death claimed routing/design credit for Macdonald flies in the face of any reasonable view of the world and of human nature unless one accepts the one fact that makes sense of it all, i.e. that Macdonald didn't do more at Merion that what he was given credit for at the time.

On Bob's answer, I couldn't do it justice from memory (it was a beautifully constructed puzzle, and if I miss one piece it may fall part) -- and I honestly can't remember which of the Merion threads it was on

Peter       

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

Do you think that CBM only consulted on the routing of Merion,or are you with David M in asserting that he [CBM] must have routed Merion because Wilson didn't route Merion?

Bradley
Exactly. Re-read your question.

[Kirk Gill]

A few random thoughts.

I must be a sick person, because as a result of this thread, I went back and read a good portion of the Missing Faces of Merion thread. I was trying to see exactly where it became more of a battleground than a discussion, and I didn't really find any specific turning point, except it seemed to turn not long after I stuck my face into it, so perhaps I should take responsibility.

Tom, in David's synopsis of his essay, he says "While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land.  Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan." That seems pretty clear to me. Perhaps he never said that M&W alone produced the routing, but I don't feel like splitting hairs.

But I'll repeat what I said earlier, the facts and conclusions in David's essay were just the bones of contention, and it was the level of contentiousness that was really the problem issue. And I know contentiousness. A friend of mine at work wouldn't talk to me for a week because of a disagreement we had over the movie G.I. Jane. A woman in my office had to shush me and a different friend because we were arguing.........about the metric system.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Do you think that CBM only consulted on the routing of Merion,or are you with David M in asserting that he [CBM] must have routed Merion because Wilson didn't route Merion?

Bradley
Exactly. Re-read your question.

Bradley Anderson,

I hope you didn't buy the book because of me.  I wasn't challenging you to buy it, but merely asked whether you had read any of the books before ridiculing them.  I have not read any of the anti-Stratford works.  I was given one of the books and plan to read it at some point, but honestly it is not really my interest.  

I'll stay away from the one you are reading as it doesn't sound all that good.

DavidM,

You don't get off that easy. You have questioned the historical accuracy of the gospels, and I have led you to an author (R.C.Sproul) who is most adept at addressing your hit and run remarks. Now do the manly thing and read it. I'm slogging through my assingment because you challenged me to do so. Now you are honor bound to do the same. Except you will be reading real scholarsim while I'm stuck here reading twaddle.

Bradley,  I am not sure exactly why you are reading the book you are reading.  I really do not think I challenged you to read it.  I've never read it, and don't care to.  I'd have recommended a different one if you'd asked but frankly I have not even read the one I would have recommended.  If I were you, I'd stop reading.

As for me reading R.C. Sproul, I am sure you mean well, but really it is not my cup of tea.  So thanks, but no thanks.  

I warned you guys.

Even Lewis Carroll is spinning in his grave.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom -

the short answer is "yes". First, because I believe that in those relatively early days of American golf course architecture the dedicated and hard-working and golf-playing amateur designer could, on occasion and depending on the site, produce something special -- even if we're assuming that the earliest iteration of Merion East was all that special.

Can you give us some examples of amateur architects from this period that had no help from experienced men?

Second, because I've read some of the roughly contemperaneous accounts, and some of the Wilson report, and I have never read any convincing argument as to why I shouldn't take those accounts/report at face value; nor do I have any reason to believe that the men who gave Wilson credit were lying or had any reason to lie.

What reports did you read? Do these reports mention M&W?

Third, because Mr. Macdonald was no shrinking violet, and it was a small community of men these wealthy amateur-sportsmen, and that no one ever until Mr. Whigham at the time of CB's death claimed routing/design credit for Macdonald flies in the face of any reasonable view of the world and of human nature unless one accepts the one fact that makes sense of it all, i.e. that Macdonald didn't do more at Merion that what he was given credit for at the time.

Did Macdonald mention his inolvement at Shinnecock Hills? Why not?

On Bob's answer, I couldn't do it justice from memory (it was a beautifully constructed puzzle, and if I miss one piece it may fall part) -- and I honestly can't remember which of the Merion threads it was on

Peter       

Peter
Why is Merion East the only course Wilson's name is associated with that has any of the prototypical British holes/famous features?

There have been a lot of opinions expressed on these Merion threads, but not many facts to support the opinions.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Where did David say who did route Merion?

He didn't. Did you ever decide to read it?

This is where Mike claims he did: "Further, Macdonald and Whigham had sent their advice as to what could be done with the land in a letter, so at the NGLA meeting they were all likely working out the particulars of the golf holes that Macdonald and Whigham had envisioned. "

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

I have faith you can stand on your own here, but for your own sanity and peace of mind, I'm offering a hand to help pull you from the slippery slope I see you heading down.

Anyone with a friggin brain even remotely interested in GCA by 1911 knew what the prototype holes were from Great Britain.   Whigham and others wrote about it and going to Europe was all the rage.   There were concept and template holes going back to the 1890s based on the redan and alps.

At Merion...there is a "redan" that is/was nothing of the sort, an "alps" that wasn't blind, and an "eden" that was quicky discarded because it didn't work.   Beyond that, there was a valley of sin, which was a feature not used on any M&W course.

That's it as far as template hole...period...ever...nothing else in the history of the course.      

Take my hand....let me pull you from the icy water.

[Thomas MacWood]

Peter
I'm going to bed. Obviously they prefer you not speak for yourself.

[Mike_Cirba]

He didn't. Did you ever decide to read it?

This is where Mike claims he did: "Further, Macdonald and Whigham had sent their advice as to what could be done with the land in a letter, so at the NGLA meeting they were all likely working out the particulars of the golf holes that Macdonald and Whigham had envisioned. "

"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land.  Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan."


Tom,

Please don't insult our intelligence by trying now to imply that David didn't say that 1) Hugh Wilson did NOT route Merion and that 2) some combination of HH Barker and CB Macdonald/HJ Whigham DID.   

I know he got that directly from YOU, so please...we're not stupid, even if events and further evidence do not support your conclusions.

I'm trying to defuse this so we can all leave gracefully.

Why the need on your part to keep this insanity going???

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
That would be great to meet Matt Shaeffer. I would like to do some kind of golf trip this fall with a bunch guys on our green committee, and coming out your way would be one hell of trip."

Bradleyoh:
You just name the time and I'll make it happen. You and your green committee are going to really enjoy MattS. He is a stitch but his strong suit is he's about as informative and educational as a green committee could ever find anywhere. After playing the course we take you and your green committee into his office and he sits everybody down and asks: "How did you like it?" Of course everyone always says they loved it. Then he says: "Do you think you want something like I've got here?" And of course they always say they do. Then he says: "Ok, how many people do you have on your crew in-season?", and most say we have 15-20 and he says; "Well, I have about 50 and so if you want what I have here all you need to so is give Bradley the MONEY----let me repeat that, give him the MONEY or don't you dare expect to have what we have here---that's the deal for starters." And if anyone on your green committee is not understanding something he says or disagrees with it, MattS is always sitting right underneath his blackboard and he has his chalk at the ready and he is definitely ready to go into the "breakdown/breakout" details for them (MattS is a frustrated school teacher, there's just no doubt about it). Believe me, this guy is good and most importantly he's all for you, Bradley Anderson.  Now, that's the offer but, if, for some reason the Pissboy Morrison is pissed at me we might need to reschedule or reconsider this, OK?

"Do you have a golf course out there that favors a really bad slice off the tee?"

Not that I can think of at the moment. We are basically all a bunch of whores and hookers here in Philadelphia. I thought you picked that up from MacWood and Moriarty.

"You have, behind the scenes helped me and encouraged as a golf course superintendent. No one on this site would even know that. I have never called Wayne, but I have no doubt that he would have helped me as much as you have."

Oh, I don't know about that. I've been thinking there's this huge connection between grass and architecture, particularly historically and it was you who helped me to put the reality to it. You have to understand, there are basically three things that scare the shit out of me---cooking, sailing and agronomy. Belay, that, smooth taking Southern women do too. But if you're trying to throw some flattery around, always throw it my way first---I'll deal with Wayno later since I taught him everything he knows anyway except about drugs.

"People who think that you two are disputatious are just crazy."

Maybe they're not crazy. I am disputatious, but it's generally by design and it mostly doesn't come off very well---at least not on here.

"I've learned so much about what is golfish from what you and Wayne have posted on this site. For a long time I just keyed in on your posts and Wayne's."

I think I catch your drift, Bradley, but watch out for words like "golfish"---it sounds a bit too much like a word a gaggle of mall-chicks would use. Let's just say we learn or we understand "GOLF". It's sort of like one must always say we "play golf" not we "go golfing" which is a total "no-no" in some circles which actually may not be that trustworthy anyway, so all I can say is----whatever.

"Pass this on to Wayne: that a weed picker appreciates him here and would like him back."

I will.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - even if all those questions hadn't been looked at and answered and fought over a thousand times already (even, a few times, by me) are you sure you want to get into what "facts" there are to support the contention that M&W did more at Meron than they've traditionally been given credit for? You mention our "opinions". Well, you're smarter than me, and you know more about the history of golf course architecture than I do, and you are infinitely more involved in the study of that subject than I'll ever be -- but what I don't know about the early days of Merion doesn't put what you don't know about the early days at Merion in any better light....

Peter  

Mike - always appreciate the help, but I was aware of all that and I think I may ave commented on that in a thread long ago and far away...but again, that's an example of what's characterized as "opinion" when a rookie like me says it and as "fact" when one of the experts claims the opposite...it doesn't bother me, as I have little ego attached to this, but ouch, when I get the Mucci touch....

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

are you with David M in asserting that he [CBM] must have routed Merion because Wilson didn't route Merion?

Mike
This was Brad's question. I don't believe DM's essay asserts CBM routed the course.

Now I'm really going to bed.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom - even if all those questions hadn't been looked at and answered and fought over a thousand times already (even, a few times, by me) are you sure you want to get into what "facts" there are to support the contention that M&W did more at Meron than they've traditionally been given credit for? You mention our "opinions". Well, you're smarter than me, and you know more about the history of golf course architecture than I do, and you are infinitely more involved in the study of that subject than I'll ever be -- but what I don't know about the early days of Merion doesn't put what you don't know about the early days at Merion in any better light....

Peter  

Mike - always appreciate the help, but I was aware of all that and I think I may ave commented on that in a thread long ago and far away...but again, that's an example of what's characterized as "opinion" when a rookie like me says it and as "fact" when one of the experts claims the opposite...it doesn't bother me, as I have little ego attached to this, but ouch, when I get the Mucci touch....

I'm not a fan of you are smarter than me, you know than me defense. Make your case.

[David Stamm]

Guys, I can't believe you can't take this onto a Merion thread. This was supposed to be about Wayne's departure, not another 10 page thread on DM's essay or the rebuttals to it. I understand that Wayne's departure had something to do with this (despite me choosing not to participate, I have been paying attention), but take this to where it belongs before this turns into a thread as long as one of James Clavell's paperbacks with the same results.

[TEPaul]

Dan Hermann:

If you're going to say the things about Morrison you did in post #140 would you please send them to me first so I can edit them? The man was born with a size 8 1/2 hat size and his head definitely does not need any more expansion.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom Paul,

I like the word golfish and I'm keeping it in my vernacular. Isn't that a Wodehouse word?  

Now I'm going to bed. And I vow to leave this subject. I think Mike C is right, this is done. GCA will die if this goes on and on.

Tommorro you should go mow your field and smell some new cut grass.

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