[BCrosby]

Mike - No problem.

Tom MacW - What is the relevance of 1923? It's an odd cutoff date.

Bob

[John_Cullum]

By the way Tom McW, Palma Ceia is very near all of those Arts and Crafts bungalows I once told you about in South Tampa

[Steve_Lovett]

I would say Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace deserve to be on this particular list, as they are pretty good courses even today, and during that period in the Southeast, I believe they would have been among the better of the lot.

It is my understanding Bendelow designed Palma Ceia in 1917 and then Ross rerouted it in 1923 (per Cornish and Whitten)

Temple Terrace was done by Bendelow in 1921

I believe Palma Ceia claims the golf course dates to 1915.  That's what I recall when I played there a couple of weeks ago.  I'll agree that Palma Ceia falls in the "pretty good" category, as you have described.  Is Temple Terrace in a form that resembles what may have been there in the '20's?   

And, yes, the neighborhood near Palma Ceia is marvelous - numerous grand old homes dating back to the '20's, and earlie.  And the Hyde Park neighborhood is a short distance away with many great bungalows, as well as other classical homes from that era.

[Thomas MacWood]

Bob
I chose the early 20s because it was prior to the golfing boom in Florida ~ I didn't want the early courses (and architects) to get lost in the shuffle. The 20s are pretty well documented the period before is really not. Also #2 had a major redesign that year and The Cascades was designed in '23.

[John_Cullum]

A long time meber told me Gary Koch (who grew up at Temple Terrace) oversaw a renovation of Temple Terrace some years back. I don't know who actually did the work, but I expect he has a connection to Steve Smeyers; however, that is a mere assumption on my part. I believe Bendelow's route remains intact, and I doubt it is much different on the whole

[Thomas MacWood]

Steve
I found an old article that reported George Low collaborated with Ross at St. Augustine. Low went on to be the long time pro there (in the winter).

Pinehurst #2 - 1901, 1923 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1914 Bendelow?

Belleair (East) - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, Ross 1915

Cascades - 1923 Flynn

The Homestead - ?

West Palm Beach - 1920? Langford

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Princess Anne - 1921 ?

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

CC of Charleston - 1922 Raynor

Mid Pines - 1921 Ross

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Belle Meade - 1921 Ross

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Biltmore Forest (Ashville) - 1921 Ross

Metairie - 1923 Raynor

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Camden (Kirkwood) - 1923 Travis

Brookhaven (Ga) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1892 Leeds

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Timuquana - 1923 Ross 

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte) - 1910?

Audubon - ?

Clearwater - 1920 Herbert Strong

Ormond Beach - 1903?

Atlantic Beach - 1922 Willie Park (I'm not sure what became of this course)

Bon Air (Augusta) - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Temple Terrace - 1921 Bendelow

 

[David Stamm]

Tom,

       My research may be wrong, but have Burbubg Tree opening in '23. I also have another 2 courses, Prince Georges CC (Ross) that opened in '21 and Brentwood GC (Ross) in '23. Here are a few other dates for the courses I cited earlier.


Seminole- 1919

Chevy Chase- still trying to find out an exact date

Miami CC- 1919 (Ross)

West Palm Beach CC- 1921 (Langford)

Overhills GC- 1911 (Ross)

Augusta CC- 1899

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

       My research may be wrong, but have Burbubg Tree opening in '23. I also have another 2 courses, Prince Georges CC (Ross) that opened in '21 and Brentwood GC (Ross) in '23. Here are a few other dates for the courses I cited earlier.


Seminole- 1919

Chevy Chase- still trying to find out an exact date

Miami CC- 1919 (Ross)

West Palm Beach CC- 1921 (Langford)

Overhills GC- 1911 (Ross)

Augusta CC- 1899

David
I think that Augusta course must be the Bon Air course. Do you know? Do you know who did Seminole? Maryland is outside of our SE territory.

[David Stamm]

Tom,

       My research may be wrong, but have Burbubg Tree opening in '23. I also have another 2 courses, Prince Georges CC (Ross) that opened in '21 and Brentwood GC (Ross) in '23. Here are a few other dates for the courses I cited earlier.


Seminole- 1919

Chevy Chase- still trying to find out an exact date

Miami CC- 1919 (Ross)

West Palm Beach CC- 1921 (Langford)

Overhills GC- 1911 (Ross)

Augusta CC- 1899

David
I think that Augusta course must be the Bon Air course. Do you know? Do you know who did Seminole? Maryland is outside of our SE territory.

Sorry, I thought Maryland was included. I'll retract Seminole as it appears I jumped the gun by 10 years on that one.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think 1929 is a much better date for the southeast.

[BCrosby]

Tiger -

I think Tom MacW is trying to develop a course list before the explosion of development in Florida. For that purpose, I might have picked an earlier date, say 1918. By 1923 things were well underway in Florida.

Tom -

The two Bon Air courses in Augusta were the Augusta CC courses. Bon Air guests seemed to have playing privileges. The originals of both date from before 1900 and were homemade jobs. Ross and Raynor redid one each. I do not know the dates of those redo's. As noted, the Raynor became NLE in the '30's.

Bob

[Thomas MacWood]

Bob
In 1910 I know there was two courses in Augusta, Bon Air and Hampton Terrace. Where they both Augusta CC or was a third course later added?

Pinehurst #2 - 1901, 1923 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1914 Bendelow?

Belleair (East) - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, Ross 1915

The Homestead - ?

West Palm Beach - 1920? Langford

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Brookhaven (Ga) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1895 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte) - 1910?

Audubon - ?

Clearwater - 1920 Herbert Strong

Ormond Beach - 1903?

Bon Air (Augusta) - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow
 

[BCrosby]

Tom -  Hampton Terrace was linked to another hotel/resort. The resort burned down in the 20's. I think the course is still there, though now with a different name I've forgotten. I had lunch there a couple of years ago and walked a few holes until my wife dragged me back to the car and told me to take her home.

Ross built Forest Hills in the mid-20's. It's still there.

I thought that the Bon Air/Augusta CC had two courses from way back, though I might be wrong about that. I have a book at home I will check tonight.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Tom -

BTW, Brookhaven should be referred to as: "Capital City Club (Brookhaven)"

[John Shimp]

Tom,
I would put Palmetto as 1892 Leeds as that is the date golf started there.
Charlotte CC is a 1910 Ross.

[Chris Cupit]

Palmetto is 1892.  Leeds, Mackenzie, Ross, Jones, Doak team, Hanse

Charlotte Country Club was 1910 and should be on the list having hosted multiple USGA championships

Linville Golf Club might be another early one but not sure of date

My Linville hat has the date 1892 on it.  It is a terrific Donald Ross course that has recently been fixed up a bit.  I'm headed up for their Four-Ball tournament tomorrow--lows in the 50s and highs in the 70s and the all world seafood buffet Thursday night at the Eseeola Lodge

Actually, while the original course at Linville dates to 1892, the current course that is still largely Donal Ross was built after 1920.  In 1924 Ross spent two days here and left a routing that was built over the next two years so I guess a 1926 opening.

The old course was abandoned in 1934 and the current course has had few changes to the work done in 1924-26 by Ross' construction crew.

[Joey Smith]

Mike - Belle Meade was 1925 or 26. Ross made a swing through the SE in '25 and designed virtually all the best courses now in big SE cities. So Tom's 1923 cutoff knocks out a lot of courses, including Highlands, Athens CC, Birmingham CC, Mountain Brook and a lot of other Ross courses.
Bob

Bob, the first place I looked was the Southern Golf Association's web-site to see where its amateur had been held.  The first was at Nashville Golf Club of which very little is known.  The event was held in Nashville in 1911 and 1921 and I merely assumed the latter was at Belle Meade.

Mike - Was the old Richland not originally the Nashville Golf Club?

[Kyle Harris]

I really don't see how the Temple Terrace CC routing could have changed at all, since it's a part of a master planned community. Interestingly, the old clubhouse is now part of the campus of Florida College, a small liberal arts college in Temple Terrace.

I live within walking distance to Temple Terrace CC and have walked the course with a putter in the evening, the greens are marvelous and make for a lot of interesting angles not immediately apparent.

Tom Roewer is the man to ask.

Palma Ceia should definitely be included on this list, and I believe the Ross involvement may have been as early as 1919.

[Thomas MacWood]

I went through some old directories and found a few more courses.

Pinehurst #2 - 1901 Ross

Pinehurst #1 - 1900 ?, 1913 Ross

Pinehurst #3 - 1907 Ross, 1910 Ross

Pinehurst #4 - 1912 Ross, 1919 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1910 Bendelow

Belleair #1 - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, 1908 L.Auchtolonie, 1915 Ross

The Homestead - ?

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Miami Beach - 1916 ?

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Nashville - 1902 ?

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Capital City (Brookhaven) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1893 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte CC) - 1910?

Ormond Beach - 1903?, 1910 Merritt

CC of Augusta-Bon Air - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

Camden - 1899?

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Howey - 1917 O'Neil

CC of Mobile - 1916 Ross

Idle Hour/Log Cabin (Macon) - 1911 ?

Carolina (Raleigh) - 1911 ?

Southern Pines - 1907 Peacock

Florida GC - 1913 J.Mitchell

 

[Steve Wilson]

Two things.  First, as a lifelong West Virginian, I agree with John Cullum in not assigning West Virginia to the Southeast.  In fact, I think a lot of people would exclude Virginia from that category as well.  The Old Dominion is as much a Mid Atlantic state as a Southeastern one. 

And if we, properly,  eject West Virginia from the Southeast, then the Old White has to come off the list of courses.  The Greenbrier may only be in West Virginia by a few miles, but it's still here.

With the nearly parenthetical quibble about Virginia included I guess I had three things to bring up.  Now back into my hole.

[Thomas MacWood]

Steve
West Virginia is an odd one geographically. If you divide the country into East, SE, Midwest, SW and West. Where do you put WV?

Kentucky and Virginia are in the South - I don't see a major problem putting the state between'm in the same region.

It you had a mid-Atlantic region it really doesn't fit naturally there either - not being near the coast. A state without a natural region.

[Steve Wilson]

Tom,

You are absolutely right.  Some states regions would fight over.  West Virginia--no one wants us.  Mid Atlantic?  No coastline.  Southern?  Seceded from Virginia during the Civil War.  Mid West?  Too many mountains.  I guess the only place we really belong is in Appalachia which is a region that pays no mind to  state borders as it extends from Alabama to New York. 

May years ago when I took a course on the history of the English language, there was a diagram showing the major speech areas of the United States.  Where I live, at the base of the northern panhandle, four different speech regions converged.  Midwestern, Mid Atlantic, Appalachian, and I guess what one could call Pittsburghese.   Much like Switzerland, to which we have been compared, we are strongly influenced by the surrounding regions.   Of course in Switzerland's case, it's Germany, France and Italy, and we're not quite that lucky cuisine wise. 

And as for golf architecture, well...what the Saturday Evening Post infamously (if you are a Mountaineer)said nearly half a century ago about our economics "Poverty Amid Splendor" applies.

[John_Cullum]

I certainly agree about Virginia not being a part of The South, but that attitude always pisses them off.

[Thomas MacWood]

Afterall, Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy.

[John_Cullum]

Cornish and Whitten write that CC of Orlando was built in 1918 as was Ft. Myers G&CC, both by Ross. Some from this site are high on Orlando, although I am personally not familiar with it. I have heard no reports on Ft. Myers G&CC.

Ft Myers is a municipal course, one website notes the following:
"There was a multi-million dollar renovation done several years ago, adding even more trees to the landscape. "

Before you all explode, keep in mind that some strategically placed shade is always very welcome on Florida Golf Courses

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