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SPDB

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 07:56:06 AM »
Aiken

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 09:25:31 AM »
Sorry I excluded Maryland from the SE, I'm still considering Cuba and the Bahamas. I was under the impression the Ross courses at Miami, Overhills, Augusta and Linville were later than 1923. Did anything happen at Palmetto between 1892 and 1933? Was Ross actually take his architectural show on the road in 1910? It was my impression he didn't spread his wings until a year or few years later.

Pinehurst #2 - 1901, 1923 Ross

East Lake - 1914 Bendelow?

Cascades - 1923 Flynn

The Homestead - ?

West Palm Beach - 1920? Langford

St. Petersburgh - ? Tillinghast

Princess Anne - 1921 ?

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

CC of Charleston - 1922 Raynor

Mid Pines - 1921 Ross

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Belle Meade - 1921 Ross

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Metairie - 1923 Raynor

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Camden (Kirkwood) - 1923 Travis

Brookhaven (Ga) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1892 Leeds

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Timuquana - 1923 Ross 

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Charlotte - 1910 Ross?

Audubon - ?

BCrosby

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2008, 11:14:50 AM »
I don't have access to C&W, but I thought Augusta CC's two courses - the Ross and the Raynor were in place by '23. Bobby Jones wintered in Augusta and played the courses regularly, though he might have started doing so after that date. I have a Bon Air Hotel brochure that shows the routings. I think (but am not sure) that it was earlier than '23.

Were Yeamans and Charleston CC later than '23?

Bob
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 11:20:47 AM by BCrosby »

John Goodman

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2008, 12:19:24 PM »
Biltmore Forest, Asheville (Ross), 1922
Asheville CC predated 1921 I believe

Some early (pre1900) courses that were discussed at the time as being notable:

Pine Forest GC, Summerville SC
CC of Thomasville, Thomasville GA
Florida CC, Jacksonville (prior to 1895, called St. James GC)
Wana Luna GC, Hot Springs, NC
Lakeside CC, Richmond
Ormond Links, FL
Miami GC
Kissimmee GC
Magnolia Springs, FL
Swannanoa CC, Asheville:

BCrosby

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2008, 01:48:13 PM »
Another name to check out is James River CC in Richmond.

John G.

What do you know about Thomasville CC? The town was at one time a very popular winter destination for wealthy snowbirds. For that reason I would guess that its golf course has an interesting pedigree.

Bob

John Goodman

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2008, 03:19:39 PM »
Bob:

As best I can tell, Thomasville Country Club is now Glen Arven Country Club.  It came about as a result of the efforts of a New York lawyer and developer named Jay Wyman, who summered in Thomasville and bought an estate there which was made into the club.  The course appears to date from 1895.  A Thomasville website claims that the club is the oldest in Georgia and the sixth oldest in the U.S.  What I have read credits the design to Wayne Stiles and John Van Kleek, but that would seem to be a later iteration.  I suspect there are others here who would know better whether the course is one of Stiles' or no.

An article I have by John Duncan Dunn from 1899, titled "Winter Golf in Southern Sunshine," says of Thomasville:

"The borderland wayside links may fitly end at Thomasville, in the extreme southwest of Georgia, where one can almost imagine that he feels the tang of the Mexican Gulf.  Everything about the Country Club of Thomasville betokens taste and judgment, and from the moment you pass through the rustic woodwork arch of its grounds till you leave, there is a sense of luxury and comfort.  The home of the club is in Glen Arvern Park, three hundred acres of high ground surrounded by as well-wooded and diversified a country as ever delighted the eye of sportsman and golfer.  I found its well-sodded greens and well-turfed course throughout a continuous delight.  It did not seem possible that there could be such climatic conditions as those which, in the summerlike parlors of the Piny Woods Hotel, I read of in the North.  Fortunate are the golfers of a land where they can so dodge the seasons."

I guess Dunn didn't spend much time there in the summer . . .

John

BCrosby

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2008, 04:44:43 PM »
Thanks John. I have wanted to get down there for years and have never made it. As you might know, Thomasville was a big deal resort for a time. You have whetted by desire to make the trip. Glen Arven has always been highly thought of in the state. I think there is a mineral springs nearby that was also very popular.

Bob
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:28:59 PM by BCrosby »

John Goodman

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2008, 05:03:14 PM »
Here's a picture of the "rustic woodwork arch" of which Dunn wrote (from the Digital Library of Georgia):

 


BCrosby

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2008, 05:35:12 PM »
With all the monied northerners around before the turn of the last century, I'd bet that Glen Arven has an interesting design history.

Bob

John Shimp

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2008, 07:32:30 PM »
Tom,
Palmetto was taken back to 18 holes in 1895 by Leeds and the local pro.
In the late 20's Ross was known to be at the course but I'm not sure what if anything his visit led to.  In 1932, MacKenzie drew plans to lengthen the course, rebunker it to more his style, and convert the greens from sand to grass.  Wendell Miller carried out his plans.  Many people now give MacKenzie design credit.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2008, 07:34:37 PM »
John, what else is known about Wendell Miller? Has he done work on other courses?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 06:06:11 AM »
Biltmore Forest, Asheville (Ross), 1922
Asheville CC predated 1921 I believe

Some early (pre1900) courses that were discussed at the time as being notable:

Pine Forest GC, Summerville SC
CC of Thomasville, Thomasville GA
Florida CC, Jacksonville (prior to 1895, called St. James GC)
Wana Luna GC, Hot Springs, NC
Lakeside CC, Richmond
Ormond Links, FL
Miami GC
Kissimmee GC
Magnolia Springs, FL
Swannanoa CC, Asheville:

John
Do you know who designed those courses?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2008, 07:29:36 AM »
Pinehurst #2 - 1901, 1923 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1914 Bendelow?

Belleair (East) - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, Ross 1915

Cascades - 1923 Flynn

The Homestead - ?

West Palm Beach - 1920? Langford

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Princess Anne - 1921 ?

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

CC of Charleston - 1922 Raynor

Mid Pines - 1921 Ross

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Belle Meade - 1921 Ross

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Biltmore Forest (Ashville) - 1921 Ross

Metairie - 1923 Raynor

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Camden (Kirkwood) - 1923 Travis

Brookhaven (Ga) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1892 Leeds

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Timuquana - 1923 Ross 

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte) - 1910?

Audubon - ?

Clearwater - 1920 Herbert Strong

Ormond Beach - 1903?

Atlantic Beach - 1922 Willie Park (I'm not sure what became of this course)

Bon Air (Augusta) - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 09:02:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

John Goodman

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 08:31:12 AM »
Biltmore Forest, Asheville (Ross), 1922
Asheville CC predated 1921 I believe

Some early (pre1900) courses that were discussed at the time as being notable:

Pine Forest GC, Summerville SC
CC of Thomasville, Thomasville GA
Florida CC, Jacksonville (prior to 1895, called St. James GC)
Wana Luna GC, Hot Springs, NC
Lakeside CC, Richmond
Ormond Links, FL
Miami GC
Kissimmee GC
Magnolia Springs, FL
Swannanoa CC, Asheville:

John
Do you know who designed those courses?

No, sir, but I will do some research and try to find out.  My brief looking yesterday on Thomasville led me to conclude that the lawyer/developer Jay Wyman Jones laid out the intial nine holes there, and that Stiles and Van Kleek came along later and redid it and added nine more.  But that might be wrong.

By the way, the reprinted Dunn piece from 1899 Outing's Monthly Review of Amateur Sports and Pastimes describes a course at Ormond-on-the-Halifax, somewhat south of St. Augustine.  No other information about it, however.

John_Cullum

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 09:20:12 AM »
Glen Arvin is a pretty neat course. Very small greens and on a pretty interesting property. Thomasville is a very nice town, quite laid back, and only about a half hour from Tallahassee. Glen Arven has one of the better pro shops I have seen, surprising for such a laid back kind of place, and the young ladies from the local college who staff the place are incredibly beautiful.

1923 is an interesting cutoff, why did you pick that Tom Mc? As Tom Doak notes, few had grass greens at the time.

A couple that should be on the list are Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace in Tampa, along with Univ of Florida.

As a lifelong southeasterner, I say West Virginia should not be considered.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Keith Williams

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2008, 09:29:07 AM »
I'll throw in one more that has a certain mystery surrounding it:

Stafford Place Links on Cumberland Island, Georgia.

Architect: unknown; Date: unknown, though probably sometime after 1887 and certainly prior to 1900.

The course was part of the Carnegie family estate on Cumberland Island (this portion of the island was more specifically W.C. Carnegie's).

In early 1901 the New York Times stated, "The Stafford Place links are among the most famous in the state"

This location's indirect role in golf history is interesting.  The Stafford estate was actually sold to the Carnegies by Walton Ferguson in 1887.  Ferguson then went on purchase all of Fisher's Island and it was, subsequently, his family that hired Seth Raynor to construct his course on Fisher's Island.  I cannot find any evidence, though, that the Stafford Place Links existed when Ferguson owned the property.

Additionally, Stafford Place is where Shinnecock Hills' young and talented professional from Scotland, Tom Hutchinson, died and is buried.  He was W.C. Carnegie's personal golf coach and while down on Cumberland Island with the Carnegie's in 1900, he was killed when thrown from a horse.

The course is NLE, and I haven't seen any signs or remnants of it in my visits to Cumberland Island.  Additional information about the course has been difficult to find.  It may just remain a little bit of a mystery.

Keith.

Steve_Lovett

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2008, 09:38:36 AM »
Pinehurst #2 - 1901, 1923 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1914 Bendelow?

Belleair (East) - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, Ross 1915

Cascades - 1923 Flynn

The Homestead - ?

West Palm Beach - 1920? Langford

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Princess Anne - 1921 ?

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

CC of Charleston - 1922 Raynor

Mid Pines - 1921 Ross

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Belle Meade - 1921 Ross

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

Biltmore Forest (Ashville) - 1921 Ross

Metairie - 1923 Raynor

Westhampton (CC of Va) - 1909 Barker

Camden (Kirkwood) - 1923 Travis

Brookhaven (Ga) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1892 Leeds

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Timuquana - 1923 Ross 

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte) - 1910?

Audubon - ?

Clearwater - 1920 Herbert Strong

Ormond Beach - 1903?

Atlantic Beach - 1922 Willie Park (I'm not sure what became of this course)

Bon Air (Augusta) - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

 

Why is Low given joint credit for St. Augustine Links on this list?

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2008, 09:39:59 AM »
Glen Arvin is a pretty neat course. Very small greens and on a pretty interesting property. Thomasville is a very nice town, quite laid back, and only about a half hour from Tallahassee. Glen Arven has one of the better pro shops I have seen, surprising for such a laid back kind of place, and the young ladies from the local college who staff the place are incredibly beautiful.

1923 is an interesting cutoff, why did you pick that Tom Mc? As Tom Doak notes, few had grass greens at the time.

A couple that should be on the list are Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace in Tampa, along with Univ of Florida.

As a lifelong southeasterner, I say West Virginia should not be considered.

If the question is about "the best" courses of 1923, I wouldn't say Palma Ceia or Temple Terrace would be in the conversation.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2008, 09:43:28 AM »
Tom,

Is this a list trying to identify the best courses in the SE, or is it a list trying to show every golf course that HH Barker, CB Macdonald, and Seth Raynor worked on?   It seems like most of the courses are way, way below any radar for greatness, or even goodness.

I think Tom Doak's comments here are appropo.   

BCrosby

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2008, 09:58:38 AM »
Keith Williams -

Interesting. I started to bring up Stafford Place on Cumberland, but knew nothing about it. (It used to be a very spooky old mansion. Check out the pool house. Don't let your little kids look. Or at least the place was like that 15 years ago.)

As I recall Hutchinson's grave site is still there and marked with a headstone.

I got to know some of the Fergusons back in the day. My family flew into Cumberland from St Simons one summer. The Fergusons picked us up (they ran the Greyfield Inn at the time) and explained that the airstrip was a remnant of a fw on an old golf course. That was 20 years or so ago. Your post was the first time I'd thought about it since then.

I'd wager that there is more information to be had on the course in the Carnegie archives, wherever they now reside.

Fascinating.

Bob


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2008, 10:03:22 AM »
Tom,

Is this a list trying to identify the best courses in the SE, or is it a list trying to show every golf course that HH Barker, CB Macdonald, and Seth Raynor worked on?   It seems like most of the courses are way, way below any radar for greatness, or even goodness.


Nothing like a little Philly provinciality.

Palmetto, Mountain Lake, East Lake, Yeamans, Cascades, Timuquana and so forth aren't even "good"?  Man, tough crowd.

Bob

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2008, 10:03:46 AM »
Glen Arvin is a pretty neat course. Very small greens and on a pretty interesting property. Thomasville is a very nice town, quite laid back, and only about a half hour from Tallahassee. Glen Arven has one of the better pro shops I have seen, surprising for such a laid back kind of place, and the young ladies from the local college who staff the place are incredibly beautiful.

1923 is an interesting cutoff, why did you pick that Tom Mc? As Tom Doak notes, few had grass greens at the time.

A couple that should be on the list are Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace in Tampa, along with Univ of Florida.

As a lifelong southeasterner, I say West Virginia should not be considered.

John
I chose the early 20s because it was prior to the golfing boom in Florida ~ I didn't want the early courses (and architects) to get lost in the shuffle. Also #2 was redesigned that year and The Cascades designed in '23.

There might not have been any great courses but I think there were quite few good ones. Its my impression golfers back then were less stigmatized by sand greens. I think it was taken for granted in the South.

I was wondering about West Virginia. I'll take them out - no courses listed anyway.

Who designed (and when) Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 10:15:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2008, 10:05:22 AM »
Bob,

No...I didn't mean to imply that.  Sorry for how that came across.

I'm just saying that sticking every course that HH Barker worked on in the southeast US, even though none of us have heard of them, is sort of transparent.

No offense or provincialism intended.   

I just don't expect to see "Roebuck" come up on a list of the best southeast courses prior to 1923.   ;)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 10:20:23 AM by MikeCirba »

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2008, 10:10:21 AM »
Glen Arvin is a pretty neat course. Very small greens and on a pretty interesting property. Thomasville is a very nice town, quite laid back, and only about a half hour from Tallahassee. Glen Arven has one of the better pro shops I have seen, surprising for such a laid back kind of place, and the young ladies from the local college who staff the place are incredibly beautiful.

1923 is an interesting cutoff, why did you pick that Tom Mc? As Tom Doak notes, few had grass greens at the time.

A couple that should be on the list are Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace in Tampa, along with Univ of Florida.

As a lifelong southeasterner, I say West Virginia should not be considered.

John
I chose the early 20s because it was prior to the golfing boom in Florida ~ I didn't want the early courses (and architects) to get lost in the shuffle. Also #2 was redesigned that year and The Cascades designed in '23.

There might not have been any great courses but I think there were quite few good ones. Its my impression golfers back then were less stigmatized by sand greens. I think it was taken for granted in the South.

I was wondering about West Virginia. I'll take them out - no courses anyway.

Who designed (and when) Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace?

I believe Palma Ceia dates back to 1915 +/-.  I've heard Bendelow and Ross both mentioned re: Palma Ceia, but I have done no research to substantiate either or both.  Perhaps someone from Tampa or someone directly connected to that club would know.

No idea on Temple Terrace.  I didn't realize it dated back to the '20's.



John_Cullum

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2008, 10:17:16 AM »
I would say Palma Ceia and Temple Terrace deserve to be on this particular list, as they are pretty good courses even today, and during that period in the Southeast, I believe they would have been among the better of the lot.

It is my understanding Bendelow designed Palma Ceia in 1917 and then Ross rerouted it in 1923 (per Cornish and Whitten)

Temple Terrace was done by Bendelow in 1921
"We finally beat Medicare. "

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