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John_Cullum

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Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2008, 09:23:43 AM »
Afterall, Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy.

Yes, that is an undeniable technical point
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2008, 09:30:10 AM »
The CC of Orlando has a brief history on its website:

"The Country Club of Orlando was chartered in November 1911.  At this time, the City of Orlando was eager to attract northern tourists, and the Club – which had already opened a nine-hole golf course, was seen as a tremendous asset to the city in this regard.  The first clubhouse, a typical “old Florida” building with wide verandahs, was opened in May of 1912.  The clubhouse quickly became a social center, not only for golf, but also for dances, card parties, and community entertainment of all kinds.  When financial difficulties developed a few years after the Club’s founding, a vigorous, community-wide effort took place in order to raise funds for expansion of the golf course to eighteen holes, as well as other improvements to the Club facilities.

In 1926, just at the end of the Florida Land Boom, a new Mediterranean-style clubhouse was opened.  Costing $65,000, the new facility was, indicated the Orlando Morning Sentinel, “one of the finest in the country.”  By this time, the golf course was considered one of the best in the state; and in 1933, a stable was constructed where members could keep their horses.

By now, the Great Depression had taken a firm grip on the nation, and Central Florida was experiencing a drop in the numbers of winter visitors, along with less expendable money for club dues, and even losses in the powerful citrus industry.  The future of the Club seemed uncertain until Club President, Jack Branham, managed to get the mortgage reduced to a figure that members could afford to pay.  In 1935, the Club’s corporate structure was reorganized, and the name was changed to The Country Club of Orlando, which has remained to the present day.  At this time, dues for Active Members were established at $44 per year.

During World War II, the Club experienced many difficulties – a drop in membership, along with shortages of labor, food and supplies – and only superb leadership by Club President, Holman R. Cloud, along with many donations from members, kept the Club afloat.  Following the war, the Club experienced a swift upsurge in membership as the post-war economy expanded, and in the early 1950’s the membership decided to construct a new clubhouse....


Major golf course renovations took place in 1960, 1976 and 1990, the last of which was planned to preserve and enhance the features of the original Donald Ross design."

"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike Hendren

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Re: Southeast US 1923
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2008, 09:46:28 AM »
Mike - Was the old Richland not originally the Nashville Golf Club?

I don't think so.  Totally a guess on my part, but it must have been nearby.  Golf Club Lane must have derived its name from the club and as you  know it runs north from Woodmont, then east/west between Hillsboro Road and Bowling Avenue.  This requires a little research. 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Steve Wilson

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Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2008, 09:50:20 AM »
Hey,

I never meant to exclude Virginia from the south, just from the southeast.

After all, West Virginia extends north of Pittsburgh, south of Richmond,  
west of Cleveland, and east of Buffalo, and we split from Virginia to be a free state during the Civil War--and we don't belong anywhere.     It's good to try to cast Virginia out into the cold, us pariahs like company too.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Jamey Bryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2008, 10:10:47 AM »
Tom:

You are somewhat correct in amending the original date for Camden to 1899 as there was a course in existence at that time and Camden Country Club was chartered then.  That course, however, is NLE.  The timeline and attribution is as follows:

In 1899, Camden Country Club was chartered to provide for organized golf, polo, and "other sporting pursuits."  Arrangements were made to utilize the Kirkwood Links, a 9 hole course associated with the Kirkwood Hotel (a large resort hotel catering to wintering Northerners).  The designer of the 9 hole course is unknown, as is the exact year in which it opened.  As an aside, there was a second course in Camden during this era, associated with the Sarsfield Hotel.

In 1913, the course was expanded to 18 holes using property behind the hotel (the original 9 was in front of the hotel, extending toward town).  The local paper gave design credit for the new 9 to W. Skelly, the resident pro.

In 1923, Walter Travis opened an entirely new 18 hole course using the property for the second nine and additional contiguous land.  It's unknown how much, if anything, was retained from Skelly's routing.  The Travis course was referred to as the Championship course, the original 9 as the "short course" which remained in use until after WWII when the hotel closed.  The Travis routing remains the bones of Camden Country Club today.  As I said in a previous post, Camden was the first implementation of a technique for building "undulating" sand greens which Travis later patented.

In 1939, Donald Ross renovated the Kirkwood Links.  Significant changes included:
**Rebuilding all the greens, grassing them with Bermuda.
**Eliminating one hole which called for a shot across railroad tracks.
**Addition of a wonderful par 3, then the 18th hole.
**Significant redesign of 3 other holes.

While the Travis routing is approximately 75% intact, the Club likes to note that it's the only 18 hole Donald Ross design in South Carolina.  I tend to think we're ignoring a vital part of a rather good pedigree!

Jamey 

John_Cullum

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Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2008, 10:39:04 AM »


In 1939, Donald Ross renovated the Kirkwood Links.  Significant changes included:

**Eliminating one hole which called for a shot across railroad tracks.

Perhaps the Cobb's Creek Crowd can start on restoring this fascinating feature. It could be David Schmidts winter home
"We finally beat Medicare. "

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2008, 11:08:38 AM »
Virginia not in the SE???

Have you ever driven down Monument Avenue? Looked at all the statues?

 ;D ;D

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2008, 11:11:35 AM »
John
Florida GC listed below was in Orlando, is that a different course from CC of Orlando?

Pinehurst #2 - 1901 Ross

Pinehurst #1 - 1900 ?, 1913 Ross

Pinehurst #3 - 1907 Ross, 1910 Ross

Pinehurst #4 - 1912 Ross, 1919 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1910 Bendelow

Belleair #1 - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, 1908 L.Auchtolonie, 1915 Ross

The Homestead - ?

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Miami Beach - 1916 ?

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Nashville - 1902 ?

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

CC of Virginia (Westhampton) - 1909 Barker

Capital City (Brookhaven) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1893 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte CC) - 1910?

Ormond Beach - 1903?, 1910 Merritt

CC of Augusta-Bon Air - 1909 J. Inglis

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1910 D. Ogilvie

Camden - 1899 ?, 1913 Skelly - replaced in 1923 by Travis

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Howey - 1917 O'Neil

CC of Mobile - 1916 Ross

Idle Hour/Log Cabin (Macon) - 1911 ?

Carolina (Raleigh) - 1911 ?

Southern Pines - 1907 Peacock

Florida GC - 1913 J.Mitchell

Ft. Myers - 1918 Ross


John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2008, 11:40:23 AM »
Good question Tom. C&W attribute CC of Orlando to Ross. The history indicates a 9 hole course and then an expansion to 18 a few years later. Orlando was pretty small back then, so Florida GC and CCof Orlando are likely the same
"We finally beat Medicare. "

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2008, 12:45:55 PM »
I can't believe I forgot this, but Ross' Ponce De Leon should definitely be included.  I also believe Gulf Stream was pre-1923

Also, I think Mobile was later than '23, as was Idle Hour (at least Ross' Idle Hour, I don't think what existed there before deserves to be mentioned among the best courses in the SE).

John_Cullum

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Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2008, 03:19:24 PM »
I have heard a name other than Ross in connection with Idle Hour, but I cannot recall who. The club's history on their website is quite interesting and indicates the members built 9 holes around 1914, and gradually built the rest when they had the time and money and equipment available. The club's website does not mention any architect.

Another possible addition to the list would be Columbus CC in Columbus GA by Ross, but I cannot determine a year for it
"We finally beat Medicare. "

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2008, 03:30:34 PM »
Most everyone seems to agree, including the club within the last couple of years, that Ross did no work at Idle Hour.

Bob

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southeast US 1920
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2008, 04:11:30 PM »
Sean
I'm pretty sure Ponce and St. Augustine Links are one and the same.

Bob
Phil Young discovered HH Barker designed Idle Hour.

Did you find out anything on Augusta. I think there was a Lake course and Hill course. I don't which is the old course, and who & when with the new course, although I do know it existed in 1916.

One of the directories mentioned Ross had done CC of Mobile in 1916.

Pinehurst #2 - 1901 Ross

Pinehurst #1 - 1900 ?, 1913 Ross

Pinehurst #3 - 1907 Ross, 1910 Ross

Pinehurst #4 - 1912 Ross, 1919 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1910 Bendelow

Belleair #1 - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, 1908 L.Auchtolonie, 1915 Ross

The Homestead - ?

Jungle CC - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1917 Ross

Miami Beach - 1916 ?

Memphis - 1905 D. Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Nashville - 1902 ?

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 Willie Park

CC of Virginia (Westhampton) - 1909 Barker

Capital City (Brookhaven) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1893 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1914 Barker

Babson Park - 1920 Barton

Mecklenburg (Charlotte CC) - 1910?

Ormond Beach - 1903?, 1910 Merritt

CC of Augusta-Bon Air - 1910 D. Ogilvie

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1909 J. Inglis

Camden - 1899 ?, 1913 Skelly - replaced in 1923 by Travis

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Howey - 1917 O'Neil

CC of Mobile - 1916 Ross

Idle Hour/Log Cabin (Macon) - 1911 Barker

Carolina (Raleigh) - 1911 ?

Southern Pines - 1907 Peacock

Florida GC - 1913 J.Mitchell

Ft. Myers - 1918 Ross
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 06:14:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2008, 05:58:50 PM »
Is Miami Beach the same as Flynn's Normandy Shores (1916). Arthur Hills was hired in 2006 to do a renovation. Ohh the pain...the pain.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2008, 06:38:23 PM »
John
I think you may be on to something. I have not been able to find a Miami Beach GC into the 20s, so perhaps it changed its name. What little I know about the course, it took at least two years to build, maybe three, which was a long time for a project in those days, and Carl Fisher, Mr. Miami Beach was involved. I believe Normandy Shores is on reclaimed land, something like that takes time.

bill_k

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2008, 09:56:49 PM »
What about Green Park Inn/Blowing Rock CC in North Carolina?
I've seen an old picture of a golfer hitting from an elevated tee with a caption dated late 1890's.
Interestingly, Ross renovated the existing 9 holes and added nine more in the early twenties.
According to George Bahto, new owners brought in Raynor a couple of years later-his presence there and whatever he did is not well documented. Somebody (Tom Jackson?) added some completely new holes in the 80's-90's. There might be an Eden and a Short among the holes left out of the new routing.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2008, 12:14:22 AM »
Bill
Do you know when Raynor designed Green Park Inn?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 02:24:34 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2008, 01:03:53 AM »
As far as Idle Hour/Log Cabin is concerned...

The original club had the name of the Log Cabin Club. The records of the club and elsewhere are very hazy and the original designer is unknown, but the December 1907 issue of GOLF Magazine states that "A vast amount of work has been done recently toward improving the Log Cabin Course of Macon Ga. Walter Mitchell who spent the summer season at the Century Club of Dover Bay, Ohio, has been secured for the winter and has taken charge. Since his arrival the course has been widened and lengthened, the greens improved, and the course put in rattling good condition."

What architect today wouldn't want his design described as being in rattling good condition!

Around 1910 the club decided that they needed an 18 hole golf course to replace the nine hole course they currently had. A new location was required and they found property that included an old race track (remnants of the race track can still be seen on the cours today). In the December 1911 issue of the American Golfer magazine, a small article stated, "Work is progressing nicely on the new course being built by the Log Cabin Club of Macon, Ga. The greens for the first nine holes were put in Bermuda grass during the summer and came faster than was expected. By Spring the first nine holes will be ready for play and after they are opened work will be started on the second nine."

The entire 18 hole course wouldn't open until the spring/summer of 1913.   

The only information known about the person who designed Idle Hour is that after finishing the course he went on to design and become the professional in Alabama at the Roebuck Country Club in Birmingham. There are quite a few letters and documents stating this without naming Barker. It is the following that leads us to determine that it was H.H. Barker, who designed several courses in the south during this time period. (See Tom's list for some of them).

GOLF Magazine in January 1913 stated about the Roebuck Country Club that, "Twelve holes of this course have been put in commission already and the entire eighteen will be formally opened next spring. An idea of how seriously this club has faced the problem of a really scientific course may be judged by the fact that they employed H.H. Barker as their professional at decidedly steep figures, in order to have expert advice always at hand..."

 

bill_k

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2008, 11:03:10 AM »
Tom,
From what I have been able to learn from Brad Klein and George Bahto-Ross added nine and renovated the existing nine at Green Park in 1922 (no plans or notes of his work there exist in the Tufts Archives). Bahto credits Raynor with some sort of renovation there in 1925-26 (also no notes, plans, and very little documantation) but given his schedule towards the end of his life it is doubtful that he would have gone to the trouble to travel to Blowing Rock, NC to only rebuild a few greens. I only looked around once on a very cold December day when the course was closed-Among the holes lying fallow there is some evidence to suggest an Eden, a Short, and a shortish par-4 with what must have been a really scary front right bunker set some 12-15 feet below the putting surface. As for the holes in play, only one green is remotely identifiable (maybe a Punchbowl) but there are another 6-8 holes with raised, squarish fillpads-even though the modern putting surfaces only use some 70-80% of the platforms. Any info the club had was destroyed in a fire in the 50's. The club pro told me last summer that he had found an old aerial from the 40's or 50's that showed "a lot of square greens".
There was, however, a nine-holer that existed on the site prior to 1900-designer unknown.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2008, 03:38:01 PM »
Bill
An interesting history for Green Park. I've avoided nine-hole courses, which may be a mistake.

Phil
Another person who worked at both clubs was Nicol Thompson. Thompson was the pro Roebuck for several years before resigning in 1911 and returning to Toronto. He was constructing their new course when he quit. Thompson became the pro of Idle Hour in 1913.

Bob Crosby
I have a new appreciation for George Adair of Atlanta. He should be better known. I wasn't aware how much of a student of golf architecture he was; he probably had as much to do with East Lake being an elite course as anyone.

Pinehurst #2 - 1901 Ross

Pinehurst #1 - 1900 ?, 1913 Ross

Pinehurst #3 - 1907 Ross, 1910 Ross

Pinehurst #4 - 1912 Ross, 1919 Ross

Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) - 1907 Bendelow, 1913 Adair/Barker/Ross

Belleair #1 - 1897 ?, 1900 JD Dunn/T.Dunn, 1908 L.Auchtolonie, 1915 Ross

The Homestead - 1901 ?, 1913 Ross

St. Petersburgh (Jungle CC ) - 1916 Tillinghast

Druid Hills - 1913 Barker/Adair

Old White - 1914 Macdonald

Mountain Lake - 1917 Raynor

Palm Beach - 1914 Barker, 1917 Ross 

Miami Beach - 1916 W.Park II

Memphis - 1905 D.Foulis, 1910 Bendelow, ? Ross

Nashville - 1902 ?

Ashville (Grove Park Inn) - 1911 Barker, 1917 W.Park II

CC of Virginia (Westhampton) - 1909 Barker

Capital City (Brookhaven) - 1912 Barker

Palmetto - 1893 Leeds?

St. Augustine - 1915 Ross/G.Low

Belmont Park (Hermitage) - 1918 Tillinghast

Roebuck - 1911 N.Thompson, 1914 Barker

Mecklenburg (Charlotte CC) - 1910?

Ormond Beach - 1903?, 1910 G.Merritt

CC of Augusta (Lake course) - 1910 D.Ogilvie

CC of Augusta (Hill course) - 1913 D.Ogilvie

Hampton Terrace (Augusta) - 1909 J.Inglis

Camden - 1899 ?, 1912 J.Norton - replaced in 1923 by Travis

Palma Ceia - 1915 Bendelow

Howey - 1917 G.O'Neil

CC of Mobile - 1916 Ross

Idle Hour/Log Cabin (Macon) - 1913 Barker

Carolina (Raleigh) - 1911 ?

Southern Pines - 1907 Peacock

Florida GC (Jacksonville) - 1913 J.Mitchell

Orlando CC - 1910 ?, 1918 Ross

Ft. Myers - 1918 Ross
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 06:59:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

bill_k

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2008, 07:18:57 PM »
Tom,
Speaking of nine-holers...I've seen an old scorecard from one which existed near the site of the present day Lake Toxaway CC in NC. It was connected to the old Toxaway Inn-which was a very swanky place around the turn of the century-the Inn and everything associated with it disappeared around 1912 when a flood washed the whole area away.

Couldn't you make the case that MOST of the golf courses that existed in the South prior to 1905 were nine-holers (especially if you take into account all the courses in rural/hard to access areas such as Green Park/Toxaway? I would imagine the rural nature and infrastructure of most of the South would have made it very expensive to raise money, transport equipment, and build nine holes-let alone eighteen. Your thoughts?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2008, 11:25:13 PM »
Bill
I think you're right, 9-holers were more prevelant even past 1905, and I'm sure by excluding them I will have missed some good ones, but my impresssion is by 1920 most of the best courses were eighteen.

Any idea who designed Toxaway?

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2008, 01:50:49 PM »
Tom MacW -

George Adair is the grandfather of one of my oldest and best friends. But I didn't know he had much to do with gca other than being a powerful force at EL in the early 20's. What else did you find? I'm very curious. He was an interesting guy in a very interesting and troubled time in Atlanta.

BTW, I'll try to answer your Augusta CC question tonight. I've been on the road.

Bob   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:40:16 PM by BCrosby »

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2008, 02:37:12 PM »
1902 - 1920 notable events at southern courses

Southern Am 3 times at  Memphis plus 1926,   plus Western Am at Memphis in 1920  (Chick Evans wins, Bobby Jones medalist)

Southern Am  3 times at  AAC East Lake plus 1922, and Southern Open in 1919, 1920

Southern Am 2 times at Chattanooga G&CC

Southern Am 2 times at Nashville G&CC

Thomas MacWood

Re: Southern US 1920
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2008, 02:48:12 PM »
Tom MacW -

George Adair is the grandfather of one of my oldest and best friends. But I didn't know he had much to do with gca other than being a powerful force at EL in the early 20's. What else did you find? I'm very curious. He was an interesting guy in a very interesting and troubled time in the SE.

BTW, I'll try to answer your Augusta CC question tonight. I've been on the road.

Bob   

Bob
I think I've probably only scratched the surface but what I have found is impressive. Adair oversaw the construction of Druid Hills for Barker. Although Ross is often credited for redesigning East Lake, the plan to completely overhaul the course in 1913 was done by Adair and approved by Barker. Ross was invited later in the year to come up with a bunkering plan. Adair was considered the foremost expert in golf architecture in the south - according to several reports no one had devoted more time to its study. He made at least one trip to England and Scotland with Stewart Maiden, touring many of the best courses. I found two cases where Adair and Maiden were brought in to consult on existing courses: Idle Hour and Nashville.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:50:00 PM by Tom MacWood »

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