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TEPaul

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 11:12:36 PM »
"HC Fownes, Emil Frosch, Peter Robertson, John McGlynn, Emil Loefler, and WC Fownes ~ it seems they've done a good job identifying the cast of characters, now if they could figure who did what and when we'd really be on to something."

Having just spent the day with the club's historian in his rather historic document and material fillied office and with others out there and after going over these very things it seems the idea for Oakmont, the purchase of the land, the formation of the club, the stock subscription, the conception for the course and the execution of the golf course in 1903-04 was pretty much the idea and work of Henry Clay Fownes.

Perhaps this time we don't need anyone on here claiming Fownes was too much the novice to do what he's been given credit for with Oakmont and that consequently someone more knowledgeable had to have been brought in for which that person was never given adequate credit. Perhaps you should look into, in detail, who H.C. Fownes was and what he was capable of, or at least ask first, this time.

There were a couple of others between the initial construction with groundskeeper Frosch and McGlynn such as a man named McPherson and another by the name of Van Hagen.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 11:17:33 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2008, 11:16:35 PM »
Te
I'm all ears. Do you have a good handle on how things evolved and who did what? What was the turning point - when did Oakmont become great?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 11:28:46 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2008, 11:30:21 PM »
"Te
I'm all ears. Do you have good handle on how things evolved and who did what?"

You asked us here in Philadelphia this very same question about the initial creation of Merion East over five years ago and look where it led.  ::)

The story was that Wilson and his committee designed and constructed Merion East with some advise and suggestions from C.B. Macdonald and Whigam which the club acknowledged and thankfully back then. That story and that architectural record, despite some attempts at serious architectural attribution reinterpretation from Moriarty and probably you is very much unrefuted and I'm quite certain always will be.

The story of the creation of Oakmont is attributed to the inspiration, initiative, and the design ideas of Henry Clay Fownes. Maybe, this time, you, and the likes of a David Moriarty can simply learn to accept that unless you can find something really concrete to the contrary---something neither one of you has come close to doing with Merion East.

I certainly hope Oakmont is not about to go through this same bogus and revisionist excerise ON HERE that Merion has in the last five years by anyone, certainly including you.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 11:33:31 PM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 11:56:51 PM »
I heard that CB was on the east bound, while Wilson was on the west bound. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fFoEYiM7lQ&feature=related

The Oriental illegitimate son of WC Fownes, WW Fownes was at the controls on this one.  (Wong Way Fownes was his whole name)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZXe_1lnsHw
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2008, 12:07:20 AM »
Anybody want to guess who REALLY routed and designed Oakmont for total novice H.C. Fownes and was never given given credit for it by Oakmont and its historical record?  How about Myopia---who's architectural contribution is that club minimizing?  ;)

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2008, 06:01:40 AM »

The story of the creation of Oakmont is attributed to the inspiration, initiative, and the design ideas of Henry Clay Fownes. Maybe, this time, you, and the likes of a David Moriarty can simply learn to accept that unless you can find something really concrete to the contrary---something neither one of you has come close to doing with Merion East.

I certainly hope Oakmont is not about to go through this same bogus and revisionist excerise ON HERE that Merion has in the last five years by anyone, certainly including you.

TE
Its hard to revise a history when nobody knows it. I'm sorry if my question about who did what and when struck a nerve. Your reaction is a little strange and reflects a certain parnoia with some of these subjects.

An open mind (and some intellectual curiosity) might not be a bad thing to bring to the architectural archive project, especially if writing histories will be a major portion of the mission.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 10:18:14 AM by Tom MacWood »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2008, 10:05:06 AM »
Emil also designed the Oakmont East course next door.  Most people don't know this, but there are a number of holes on the East course that are patterned after the Championship course.  They just don't have all the bunkering and ditches. 
Mark

Yikes. Oakmont East lacks more than the bunkering and ditches.

If anyone cares, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette reported just the other day that Oakmont East is done. It is owned by Oakmont Country Club, was used as a parking lot for the Open, and will be kept alive as a 9 holer for junior members.

As I think about OE, I have just had the earth shattering revelation (joking) that only 9 holes were likely done by Loeffler, it was probably expanded later.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2008, 10:54:43 AM »
George,
You will hear more about Oakmont East in the coming months.  It is a neat golf course and just needs some vision and attention paid to it.  If you are around on Thursday, swing by and you will see Forrest and I out on the golf course.
Mark

TEPaul

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2008, 11:18:37 AM »
"TE
Its hard to revise a history when nobody knows it. I'm sorry if my question about who did what and when struck a nerve. Your reaction is a little strange and reflects a certain parnoia with some of these subjects."


Tom MacWood:

When NOBODY knows it?  :)

That certainly is an odd sentiment on your part but one that is consistent with your involvement with the history of Merion East. Perhaps you didn't or don't know much about the history of Merion or the history of Oakmont but that certainly doesn't translate into the fact the NOBODY KNOWS IT!  ;)  ::)

This seems to be just another example of your modus operandi on the subjects that begin to interest you----eg NOBODY really knows much of anything about them because you don't know much of anything about them and that nobody can know much about them until you or a David Moriarty get involved in researching and analyzing them.  ;)  ???

I'd seriously doubt anyone with half a brain will fall for something like that.

And I see the exact same pattern here that you used over five years ago with Merion----eg if anyone even mentions you don't know much about it or are analyzing it incorrectly that that has to mean everyone who does know these histories must be "defensive" about them or now "paranoid" about them and their accepted history being reinterpreted.   ::)

This is the very same attitude that must have led you to label Merion and some of us around here as the "Philadelphia Syndrome."

Are we now going to have you label Oakmont with a "Pittsburgh Syndrome"?    ???   :P

Perhaps people like you and David Moriarty should not just start out before you know anything about the histories of these courses with the ASSUMPTION that there must be some need to reinterpret their histories.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 11:24:53 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 11:33:00 AM »
TE
Now that you've gotten that out of your system lets get back to the original purpose of the thread, that is to learn more about the history of Oakmont.

Do you know how the course evolved over the years, and what roll Fownes, McGlynn, Robertson, Fownes et al played in the changes over the years; is it known who specifically did what?

What was the course like in 1903?

At what point in the redesign or evolution did the course become one of the elite courses in America?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »
train wrecks won't do it...
I guess we are back to...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUvEouWA29o&feature=related
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 11:37:09 AM »
Oakmont is a great example of the positive virtues of a benevolent dictator - if the stories I've heard over the years that the elder Mr. Fownes built the course and ran it as a one-man show for many years.  Apparently he continually tweaked the course, to the extent of putting in a bunker overnight if he saw someone hit a shot where Mr. F didn't think anyone should be able to do with impunity.

Are there other examples of this benevolent dictatorship from the very beginning?  I would suggest Chicago Golf Club and National Golf Links as the major other examples.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 11:48:29 AM »
Bill, I believe others have said Pine Valley benefited from that type of leadership.

Mark, I will see you and Forrest Thursday! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2008, 12:12:19 PM »
George,
Just look for the guy in the goofy glasses carrying all the maps and topos and waving his arms around.  That of course will be Forrest  ;D  Hope we have nice weather and look forward to seeing you. 
Mark

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2008, 10:50:17 PM »
Bump.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: When did Oakmont become great?
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2008, 07:30:07 AM »
The history of Oakmont is not well known, at least to me. The course was founded in the early 1900s but I don't believe it hosted its first major event until 1919 and the US Am. In the early years it was not mentioned with the other elite courses in the country; from what I understand there was a major redesign prior to it being chosen for the Amateur.

What was that early course like and what changes were made over the years?

Tom MacWood,

I think that's a very interesting question.

Especially if we apply it to all of the "great" golf courses.

When did they become acclaimed as "great"

At inception ?

After alterations ?

Is it architecture dependent ?

Or is it more related to accepted tastes and preferences at specific points in time ?

Hilton Head ?
Dye's TPC/PGA courses ?

And many others come to mind.

It's an interesting question, especially when applied universally, to every golf course deemed  "great"

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