Is all of this really about Torrey Pines??

[Kalen Braley]

Not to be a buzzkill, because yesterday theatrics were some of the best I've been in sports, much less just golf.  But is all this really much ado really about Torrey Pines or the circumstances that surrounds this tournament.

Points to consider:

1) Tiger has been playing TP since he was what like 8 yrs old? He has won 6 times as a professional and god knows how many other local and national Am events. Are we really shocked to see him playing well here? Tiger will always play well here right... which leads to my next issue.

2) Couldn't the USGA roll up to Bay Hill, Firestone, Medinah, East Lake, etc,etc aka whereve Tiger has also had lots of success, slap thier US Open sticker on it and be making a pretty good bet that Tiger will be in contention?  Does anyone blame them for going to a course where Tiger has a history for ratings purposes?

3) In light of those 1st two points, we are still surprised to see Tiger at the top because of his injury.  No doubt its epic stuff, but is it because TP brought it out in him?  Or is it because he's a gutty competitor who is so familiar with this course its allowing him to compete despite his injuries?

4) Does a great course really need to be validated by great champions for it to be great?  Is Pac Dunes or a Cruden Bay or a Chambers bay for that matter any less good because great champions haven't won there?  If this is so, why do we always come to the conlusion that a course is great because great champions have won there?  I've seen this said many times before but I don't buy this, and many prior to me have all pointed this out.

5)  Can anyone honestly say that if Tiger had missed the cut or was back in the pack they would be anywhere near as estatic with Westwood and Rocco leading the way?  Don't get me wrong, both are fine players, but they aren't in Tiger's league.  There is precedence for this as well, and that is every year that Tiger or Phil isn't in contention at Augusta.  On those off years we dubl the tourney and the course going downhill, but heaven forbid Phil and Tiger have a duel the following year and now all of sudden the course and tournament are back in good graces.  (Don't make me go dip up all those threads now!!!)   

With all these points in mind, I'm seeing a huge disconnect here.  They could be playing the US Open right here at Thanksgiving Point, tips at 7800, narrow the fairways to 15 yards wide, grow the rough to 8 inches and they wouldn't shoot much better.   Would we all be giving Thanksgiving Point the credit and calling it a top 100 course?  Its a fine course, but not anywhere in that pool of courses.

But c'mon, is this really about the course and Rees Jones?  Or is this about Tiger doing his thing when he's hurt and us getting all geeked out over it.  Would it make the least bit of difference where's he's doing it?  Do we really think its only the setup at TP that can draw out this kind of drama?  I think not!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Does your course have a par 5 where Tiger makes 3 and Phil makes 9 with no penalty strokes?  You can not discount the role architecture has played in the drama on holes like 1, 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 14, 17, and 18.

[Kalen Braley]

Does your course have a par 5 where Tiger makes 3 and Phil makes 9 with no penalty strokes?  You can not discount the role architecture has played in the drama on holes like 1, 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 14, 17, and 18.

John,

Please elaborate.  There are plenty of times where Phil and Tiger have each made 3 or big numbers on many a par 5.

I'd also be interested to know what specifically about those holes you pointed out creates drama.  I can gurantee you 13-18 at Thanksgiving Point would create more drama than the ones found at Torrey Pines.

[John_Conley]

2) Couldn't the USGA roll up to Bay Hill, Firestone, Medinah, East Lake, etc,etc aka whereve Tiger has also had lots of success, slap thier US Open sticker on it and be making a pretty good bet that Tiger will be in contention?  Does anyone blame them for going to a course where Tiger has a history for ratings purposes?

Kalen:  The US Open is all about setup.  I know this isn't what some want to hear since so much effort is spent securing the venues.  How do we know your point #2 isn't valid?  Easy.  Mark O'Meara was known as "the King of the B's" because he won a lot on Tour and they were mostly second-tier events.  No Majors.  (Ultimately he won a pair.)

He won something like 3 Pebble Beach Pro-Ams (AT&T at the time?) and may also have won a US Am or State Am at Pebble Beach.  Because of his success there he was a pick for the 1992 Open, ultimately won by Kite after Nicklaus had conceded the championship to an early finishing Montgomerie.  I think he MC'd.  Even O'Meara commented that he had won there a bunch,  but had never seen that course.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Kavanaugh,

It's great to see that your acknowledging that great architecture for tournament play is largely about the degree of gap between the best and worst scores on any given hole.

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been very true about many other Rees re-designs, but it is VERY true at TP and I say hallelujah to that!

I'm not sure how much credit Mike Davis deserves versus Rees, but let's just say they both got it right this time and leave it at that. 

[Ryan Farrow]

Kaylen, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic to my response on the other thread, perhaps an emotion icon would have been appropriate?


But its nice to see some other sane people left of this board. Perhaps their childish bickering, rants and pleas for attention have seriously affected their judgment this week.

[Kalen Braley]

Kaylen, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic to my response on the other thread, perhaps an emotion icon would have been appropriate?


But its nice to see some other sane people left of this board. Perhaps their childish bickering, rants and pleas for attention have seriously affected their judgment this week.

Hey Ryan,

I guess I've adopted the Dan Kelly stance. With the ludicrous nature of how many tie the courses architcture to how well a major does, I guess we're way past emoticon time.

I'm with you, all this venue talk based on how competitive or compelling the action is is complete nonsense.  I can take my local muni, bake the greens out, cut em to a 15, and make fairways 10 yards wide with 8 inch rough and I gurantee they won't break par.

If Tigers knee failed on day 1, and Rocco battle Westwood down the stretch, this tounrament would have been dead panned as a flop...just like the Masters did this year!!

[Paul Saathoff]

Take Torrey Pines away from coastline and it's an average course at best with a few good holes. 

The success of this Open is all setup based.  Compare the scores to the Buick (Tiger mutilating the field at -19 (one round on the north)) to this week.  All in the setup. 

But it's definately been great golf to watch, the course is just kind of blah IMO  

[jeffwarne]

the bias here is palpable.

I'll admit I fell for the pretournament downer course predictions,
but after seeing every hole repeatedly (the benefits of primetime), I must say I was riveted and was surprised/impressed with the apparent quality of the course.

I wonder what % of posters here play their golf on a better course than Torrey Pines?
Remember, you're required to take away your oceans. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't imagine a better test of the architecture of a course than seeing the best player of our day in a heads up match against a short hitting journeyman.  I'll call it the Mackenzie test.  It is nice to wake up with butterflies in your stomach over watching golf.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

This sarcasm does not become you.

Fact:  it was a damn exciting Open, and it's still going on today.

Now how much of the excitement was attributable to the golf course, how much to the players involved, how much to the price of bat guano off Chile, that can and should all be debated.

One can throw in any number of IFs - you seem to want to eliminate Tiger and then imagine the excitement; hell, you could also speculate that a massive earthquake occurred - that would rather dampen the mood also.

The fact remains a very exciting tournament occurred on a golf course that was poo-poohed by the majority of participants here.  Now of course it seems silly to take it to an extreme and say ALL of the excitement was due to the golf course and thus this golf course should be seen as Top 10, better than X, whatever... And I doubt even Kavanaugh would take it that far, outside of saying it just to try and piss you and others off.

But to give NO credit to the golf course seems to me to be equally silly.

The course - as set up by the USGA - allowed for some very interesting choices to be made, and required some darn fine shots also.  In the end it proved to be exciting.

To me that's enough.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Random thought...if Colonial was "Hogans Alley" for his wins there, why hasn't TP gotten some kind of "Tigers ?" nickname for his six wins there, with possibly another one on the way?

Second not so random thought - my Rocco memory.

My wife and I were playing TPC Sawgrass in the late 80's.  As we were teeing off on 1, Rocco came up, announced who he was (then an undistinguished tour pro) and said he was going to go ahead of us because he was "Rocco Mediate."  While not particularly a prick, and I understood why he wanted to get ahead of us, he was a bit rude, like many Tour Pros can be, and not at all like the media is portraying him now.

[Carl Rogers]

This was / is an interesting Open for me because of the course set-up. 

Several holes with different lengths and playing strategies from day to day and a par 5 finish in which anything can happen.

I hope the USGA starts doing this with other courses in the future.

[Greg Krueger]

Jeff, it is now known as Tiger Pines

[Lou_Duran]

That a course enables a number of different setups should speak highly of its design.  I think that a few folks here confuse course setup and the maintenance meld.  They are both critical to how the architecture is experienced.  TPS can be setup and maintained to every level of play.  It has the elasticity to test Tiger and Joe Sixpack.  It may be among the relatively few courses that actualizes what MacKenzie and others have suggested as ideal, a course for all types of players.     

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