Alternative Merion Routing - Holes 2-12

[David_Elvins]

I have always been interested in the theories about whether the routing at Merion was an easy decision or not.  Following Mike Cirba’s thread last week I decided to have a go at an alternative routing.  I hope that Mike doesn’t mind me not replying in that thread as I would prefer to avoid some of the peripheral stuff in that thread.

I would be more than happy to have the validity of my routing tested or critiqued, it is only based on a couple of visits to the course and a review of photo.  I hope it leads to some interesting discussion.  I have limited my routing to holes 2-12 as this is the area with the most scope for variation.  Each hole replaces the concept of an existing hole.  THe 8th hole is the only hole with the same routing.  So, anyway, here it is.



Hole Details as follows:

2 – 430 yards.
Tee: approximately on 10 green.
Green: just past second shot fairway bunker on left of fairway (see photo)
Replaces:  The current sixth as a long strong par 4.


3 – 550 yards
Tee: Close to property boundary on right hand side of second fairway at top of hill
Green:  Existing 6th green
Replaces:  Current second hole as long Par 5. 

4 – 460 yards
Tee: left of existing 7th tee.
Green: on ridge where visible left hand side 4th fairway bunker is.  (see photo)

Fairway.  Along the ridge to the current third green location.  Cuts out about 320 from tee. 
Replaces: Current 5th hole as dramatic long 2 shotter. 

5 – 148 yards.
Tee:  On ridge in right side of 4th fairway
Green: Just to the left side of the exisiting 5th green.
Replaces:  3rd hole (however a bit shorter) .I would like to make the hole longer but not sure  if the topography suited shifting the tee back a bit. 

6 – 345 yards
The current 8th hole with no changes.  Tee might shift right slightly.

7- 550 yards
Tee: back left tee on the current 9th. (see photo of shot from front tee)
Green: Current 11th green.
Replaces: 4th hole as par 5 with water carry to green


8 – 400 yards
Tee: close to current 12th tee location
Green:  Just to north of first fairway bunker on 10th hole. (see photo)

Replaces: 12th hole as drive and short iron par 4. 
Note: I think that a bit of earthwork would be needed to soften the existing terrace to make this hole work, however looking at photos (below) it looks as if a fair bit of earth was moved to form the current 11th and 12th fairways.


9 – 300 yards.
Tee:  on hill behind existing 4th green.
Green: at top of hill on 4th fairway.
Replaces:  Exisitng 10th hole as strategic  drive and pitch (or drivable) par 4. 
Note: Like the existing 10th there is room to make the hole longer, this time the contour actually suits an alps hole.


10 – 165 yards. 
Tee: On top of ridge on left hand side of 4th fairway.
Green: Just behind existing 5th green.
Replaces 9th hole as water carry par 3.

11th – 365 yards
Tee: to the left of the existing 5th green.
Green: Short and left of existing 4th green
Replaces: 11th hole as drive and short iron to green guarded by creek.

12 – 350 yards
Tee: current  front 5th tee.
Green: current 12th green 
Replaces: 6th hole as drive and pitch par 4.

[Mike_Cirba]

David Elvins,

That is one tremendous post and a considerable amount of work.

I''ll spend some time thinking about it, but wow...that's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see.

THANKS!! 


by the way...are you a professional or an amateur?   Seriously...I don't know.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Should this qualify? I didn't think the club had purchased the land where today's 11th green and 12th tee sits until the 20s, which is one of the reasons the course crossed Ardmore Ave. a few times...

It's friekin excellent work though. I love the double dog leg 7th as a par 5, and the routing seems more "balanced." 11 would also be one tough pitch shot into that green with the way the land cants toward the creek. I'd also wear a hard hat while putting.

The 10th could be a Redan.

[Tom_Doak]

David:  Very interesting work, although there are a couple of holes there I can't really visualize that well.

I don't know exactly what you meant by the phrase "an easy decision or not", but in fact the routing of Merion East evolved ... the early-1920's move to keep the holes from crossing Ardmore Ave. led them to buy the land for 11 green and 12 tee.  All of the other holes were more or less in place beforehand, so they only changed those two on that side of the road.

Some of the other comments on this thread bother me, however ... that the proposed routing is "more balanced" or that your proposed 10th hole "could be a Redan."  That's the problem with amateur architects, they don't see the more original possibilities of a piece of ground.  For my money, holes like the 3rd and 5th and 9th and 10th and 11th are one-of-a-kind wonders, and replacing any of them with another version of the Redan would be a tragedy.

[Kyle Harris]

David:  Very interesting work, although there are a couple of holes there I can't really visualize that well.

I don't know exactly what you meant by the phrase "an easy decision or not", but in fact the routing of Merion East evolved ... the early-1920's move to keep the holes from crossing Ardmore Ave. led them to buy the land for 11 green and 12 tee.  All of the other holes were more or less in place beforehand, so they only changed those two on that side of the road.

Some of the other comments on this thread bother me, however ... that the proposed routing is "more balanced" or that your proposed 10th hole "could be a Redan."  That's the problem with amateur architects, they don't see the more original possibilities of a piece of ground.  For my money, holes like the 3rd and 5th and 9th and 10th and 11th are one-of-a-kind wonders, and replacing any of them with another version of the Redan would be a tragedy.

I never said more balanced was a good thing, just meant that a par 5 existed later in the routing than the 4th hole.

10 MIGHT be a Redan, the ground slopes in such a way.

I wasn't offering suggestions, just analysis of the routing posted.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oopss...I didn't see that David used the land that wasn't yet purchased down on 11 & 12.   That wasn't a choice the Hugh WIlson and Committee had, but its' still a really pretty evocative attempt.

[Rich Goodale]

Excellent stuff, David.  I agree that 1 and 13-18 are untouchable.  I did a rough attempt which kept 11 and 12 pretty much as they are, but took 2 down to between the 10th tee and 11th green, then a short 3 back up to the 9th green and then working roughly backwards to get to a new 10th hole which plays from the current 2nd green to the current 10th.  I think it might work, but I'm not an architect and I haven't styed in a Holdiay Inn Express for ages.

Rich

[Mike_Cirba]

Oopss...I didn't see that David used the land that wasn't yet purchased down on 11 & 12.   That wasn't a choice the Hugh WIlson and Committee had, but its' still a really pretty evocative attempt.

[TEPaul]

That is an interesting alternative routing, and worth some real study (which I haven't yet done). The only thing that disturbs me about it at the moment is it would require giving up what I consider to be one of the best totally "natural landform" great par 4s in the world---eg #5. If I were the architect it would have to take a whole lot for me to give up on that one.

But actually, in the real world of routing that is one of the first lessons I learned from a great architect---eg don't hang onto something (perhaps one hole) too long if the rest suffers because of it. 

Somehow I think Wilson and his committee found the right routing for that course. It took them some years to perfect it but they did get there.

The other thing that would bother me about an alternative routing at Merion East is it might jeopardize one of the most remarkable things in all the world of architecture that I think Merion has more than any other course I've ever known, and that is its famous "Three Set" routing sequence which I can tell you from lots of experience there gets in a golfer's head more than any other course I've ever seen.

Nick Faldo has only played Merion East once and he picked up on that unique Merion "Three Set" routing sequence feature immediately. When the question was put to him about the courses overall card yardage he dismissed that immediately and pointed out the realities of that "Three Set" routing sequence and what it meant in play and to a golfer's mindset. He also punctuated what he thought the importance of it with this interesting observation in the form of a question----eg "And where did I make most of my mistakes?"   

[Ian Andrew]

David,

I admire you for taking such a reverred piece of ground and suggest another possible routing. Choosing 2 through 12 was a great idea because it reduced it down to smaller questions.

My comments:
I enjoyed some alternatives you offered like the shorter 2nd and I like many would love to find out if the 7th would work (reverse 13th at August?). The part that does not work for me is the number of blind shots that you seem to be introducing. The 12th is definately blind from the tee and I'm pretty sure the 8th would be as well because the rise is between tee and landing.

I'm enjoying this very much but you realize you are taking on the greatest routing in American golf.

As a side note, I would return to participate much more if there were other threads like this - on architecture.

Thanks,

Ian

[Michael Dugger]

I think it's a splendid effort.  Bravo!!!!

If anything, it's a hell of a piece of photoshop doctoring.....

[David_Elvins]

Oopss...I didn't see that David used the land that wasn't yet purchased down on 11 & 12.   That wasn't a choice the Hugh WIlson and Committee had, but its' still a really pretty evocative attempt.

Mike,
I wasn't sure where the exact boundaries were, and I felt it easier to use the existing land due to:
-Its an easier exercise to look at what is there today than what was in the past, and hopefully one that is easier for more people to have a go at.
-The nature of the holes that crossed Ardmore avenue is debatable and harder to replicate.
and most importantly,
-I had heard several people say there were limited alternatives to the current routing so that in itself seemed a worthwhile theory to test.

by the way...are you a professional or an amateur?   Seriously...I don't know

Strictly amateur, if I was professional I would have better things to do   (although I did pick up a few things when I spent 18 months working for Mike Clayton).

[David_Elvins]

The only thing that disturbs me about it at the moment is it would require giving up what I consider to be one of the best totally "natural landform" great par 4s in the world---eg #5. If I were the architect it would have to take a whole lot for me to give up on that one.

I 100% agree with you on that Tom.  The 5th is truly amazing.  I was more interested in providing an alternative routing than a better routing.  (I think my proposed 4rd would be a pretty cool natural landform Par 4 though.) 

I was very conscious of not slighting Wilson by coming up with a better routing

[David_Elvins]

David:  Very interesting work, although there are a couple of holes there I can't really visualize that well.

Tom,
Don't worry, I have trouble visualising them myself.  I think my Par 3 5th hole goes over a valley and along a ridge but I am not totally sure.

[David_Elvins]

David,
The part that does not work for me is the number of blind shots that you seem to be introducing. The 12th is definately blind from the tee and I'm pretty sure the 8th would be as well because the rise is between tee and landing.

Ian,

Coming from Australia, I have no aversion to blind tee shots.  Mackenzie, Russell and especially Apperley built them by the bucket load down here. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Ian,

The funny thing is that I took a beating for starting the "Route Merion" thread, but I guess I understand people's skepticism.

I hope someone points Kelly to this thread.   I'd like to hear his opinion of David's work, as well.

[Kyle Henderson]

Now I know how you kill time on those flights back to Australia...

Great effort, David!

[David_Elvins]

David,
I'm enjoying this very much but you realize you are taking on the greatest routing in American golf.

I have heard that the big argument against Merion being the greatest routing in America seems to be that the routing was somewhat automaitc given the topography and shape of the property -that there weren't really many other options.  So by providing an alternative routing I am not necessarily taking on the exisitng routing.  It could be seen that I am supporting it's greatness. 

[Sean_A]

The most interesting aspects of this discussion is the reverence for #5 and trying to come up with better par 5s. 

First, the 5th.  I liked the hole a load and thought it was probably the second best par 4 on the course behind #16.  I would be loath to see it disappear because its a true example of old time grade level golf from tee to green which doesn't jump out at you.  I was surprised so many like the hole because there are numerous excellent examples in the UK, but folks don't tend to pick them out as special.  If this is your bag, make your way to Huntercombe, its chocker block full of this sort of stuff to one degree or another. 

The par 5s.  I thought these were the weak aspect of Merion, but it wasn't for the lack of good land.  Somehow, neither hole really comes together as a satisfactory package.  Both are decent holes, but the 2nd seems to lack imagination and the 4th is over-done.  This said, I don't think the proposed par 5s look any better than the current ones and there is a the added problem of losing the lovely current 9th.  I can't see this as a good trade off.

David, thanks for effort - most interesting!  I must say I do like the like look of your would be 4th as well as the 2nd.

Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

David,
The part that does not work for me is the number of blind shots that you seem to be introducing. The 12th is definately blind from the tee and I'm pretty sure the 8th would be as well because the rise is between tee and landing.

Ian,

Coming from Australia, I have no aversion to blind tee shots.  Mackenzie, Russell and especially Apperley built them by the bucket load down here. 

David,

The existing routing of those holes has one and it's in the middle of the 4th hole. I believe they are worthwhile if the green site that follows is exceptional and the blind shot manages to make the rest of the routing work. You must understand what your being compared against - you picked a tough act to follow.

[Ian Andrew]

Oopss...I didn't see that David used the land that wasn't yet purchased down on 11 & 12.   That wasn't a choice the Hugh WIlson and Committee had, but its' still a really pretty evocative attempt.

Mike,

I haven't read any of the Merion threads.

[DMoriarty]

I have limited my routing to holes 2-12 as this is the area with the most scope for variation.  Each hole replaces the concept of an existing hole.  THe 8th hole is the only hole with the same routing.  So, anyway, here it is.

Wow, thanks for doing this.   One of the difficulties of looking at these great hold courses is that they have so much tradition and history that it becomes impossible to imagine that it could have been any other way.   If nothing else, your routing shows that there were likely other possibilities. 

A few have noted that the area in the lower right corner was not part of the property in 1910.  But these holes did use land on the other side of the road, in the first fairway and behind the clubhouse to the railroad tracks.  While having a hole crossing Ardmore Avenue seems like a very bad idea now, at the time the course was planned this area was still pretty rural and at the time this must have seemed like a pretty reasonable idea.  Other courses of the time also crossed roads.   One of the courses at LACC even played crossed Wilshire Blvd!

So to really put ourselves back in the mindset of the time, we would have to assume that we could utilize this land behind the golf course as part of the golf course, and that crossing the road would not be seen as greatly diminishing the quality of the routing.   This would allow for some pretty interesting use of the creek back there.

Do you think this might impact any of your routing decisions?

Did you keep 8 for any particular reason, or did it just work out that way?  I think if I tried ti would be difficult to give up 3, 5, 6, and 7 but that might have made changing the rest of the routing a bit more difficult.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think it's interesting that an amateur can come up with a pretty darn good routing in just a few weeks, and I also think it's interesting because it does essentially prove that there is no other way to route the course but north/south above Ardmore Avenue, and east/west below it.

It's just a matter of how long to make each hole, where to locate each greensite, and how best to attempt to utlize each natural feature.   

I daresay that the site significantly limits the routing possibilities, and I also daresay that the routing did not require an act of genius simply because at this particular site there weren't any other real, viable options in how to flow the holes.

[Kyle Harris]

I think it's interesting that an amateur can come up with a pretty darn good routing in just a few weeks, and I also think it's interesting because it does essentially prove that there is no other way to route the course but north/south above Ardmore Avenue, and east/west below it.

It's just a matter of how long to make each hole, where to locate each greensite, and how best to attempt to utlize each natural feature.   

I daresay that the site limits the routing possibilities, and I also daresay that the routing did not require an act of genius simply because at this particular site there weren't any other real, viable options in how to flow the holes.

To be completely fair...

...any subsequent routings on the site are done with the knowledge of what is already on the ground. This DOES affect how a site is perceived, so at best, this exercise is one in an ability to redesign and renovate and not come up with something original.

Are you saying that there were no good par 3 possibilities that run perpendicular to the long end of the property south of Ardmore Ave.? Remember that holes 10-12 run perpendicular to the long end, and always have, and the third hole also is more at an angle to get to the center of the property.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I'm not saying that you can't get some north/south holes in the routing below Ardmore Avenue.

I'm simply stating that you had better be judicious with them or you'll very quickly run out of room if you try to build a 6200 yard course on what was available..

I also know that David Elvins had the benefit of knowing the existing routing before proceeding, but this took him...what...a week?   Probably much of that time was spent in photoshop.   I'm sure the original committee had much more time to tromp around, survey, put together different iterations, etc., but my point remains the same;   an amateur can do a very credible routing, especially on a site without many options.

David M. points out that there were 3 acres also in play behind the clubhouse that were utilized, but then David E. would have to wipe out everything below the creek crossing on 11 & 12, so think about how much more limiting that fact would have been to the possible routings, as well.

Give it a try...see what you think.   If you want to get a 1912 "Championship" length course on the property they were given, I'd be surprised if I see someone come up with something revolutionarily different than what Wilson and the Committee did.