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George Pazin

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Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« on: June 14, 2008, 11:40:21 AM »
It's hard to think of another course on this site that is more discussed - and LESS discussed - than TPS. It has an amazing number of TV critics (yours truly included) and an amazing number of erudite critics (esteemed golf writers and architects galore).

Yet very few people have actually given any sort of detailed explanation as to what it is lacking.

So here is your chance - explain your thoughts, please. If you must throw out one liners or cliches, at least back them up with some reasoning.

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I'd like to offer my thoughts, but mine are TV only, so they aren't worth a lick. The only observation  - and yes, it's a TV observation - I can make is that there seem to be remarkably few sidehill lies of any sort, other than perhaps around some of the greenside bunkers.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2008, 11:45:34 AM »
They are wrong because Pebble Beach has a stretch of holes (6-10) that are among the very best in the world.  They are scenic, well designed and difficult.  Torrey Pines doesn't have a single world-class hole.  Pebble has a number of inland holes that are interesting and demanding; Torrey has a host of straight-away long par 4's that are difficult but mind numbingly dull.  Pebble Beach ends with a tough par 3 and a good risk reward par 5.  Torrey ends with a muni par 5 with a pond that was dug by Barney Rubble and Fred Flinstone.

I'm pulling this insightful post by Terry over from the TP v Pebble thread, as it is one of the fews posts on Torrey that offers substance.

Thanks, Terry, hope you don't mind me sliding it over.

I look forward to reading more from others. In particular, I'd love to hear a more detailed post from Jeff Fortson, a top notch golfer who has provided some fantastic insight into Riviera in the past. Jeff, I'd love it if you could expand a little on your thoughts on TPS.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Sweet

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2008, 01:37:09 PM »
Never played it, but from what I see on TV it is boring...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

David Stamm

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2008, 01:55:27 PM »
there seem to be remarkably few sidehill lies of any sort, other than perhaps around some of the greenside bunkers.


George, to go along with your observation here, Torrey lacks any interest in terms of internal hazards (which goes along with your above observation). Also, with the obvious exception of the par 3's, most all the green complexes look the same. I'm all for giving the player a chance to run the ball up the green, but it's monotonous at Torrey. I like what Rees did with the 3rd green, but I think they blew a golden opportunity to build a great Redan there. I like what the Davis did with shaving the berm on 4 so players can play it off of there and I like what Rees did with the 14th. However, there is alot of straight away holes with little movement.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kirk Gill

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 03:38:49 PM »
After one play, I don't know how detailed I can be, but I'll throw in. I thought that the course was difficult, and while it doesn't seem to beg for a lot of strategic thought, it demands execution, which is to me why it seems like an appropriate course for the pros. The fairways seemed spongy to me, compared to the harder ones I'm used to here in Colorado. Not sure if that is a characteristic of the variety of grass. And to clarify, not spongy in the sense of wet and squishy, but in the sense that it seems to give when you step on it, and the feeling of the club as I swung through felt bouncy, rather than cutting into the turf. Just an impression. The course IS fairly flat, with some notable exceptions, and I didn't experience much in the way of sidehill lies, etc. I found the greens to be hard to read, but not loaded with interior contour. I'd see three inches of left-to-right break, and would then miss the put a foot left. Obviously the course's fault !!

The three holes that stood out to me were the third, more because it's lovely than for any other reason. I also remember the beautiful flight of my ball as it disappeared over the cliff behind the green. The approach to the seventh was intimidating, and fun. The pin was right, and only a fool would attempt to approach it, which I did. Key word here, "attempt." I also liked the much-reviled 13th, with its stairstep bunkers, mainly because I managed to hit into the one on the lower-right, and the recovery shot was a bear, uphill, blind, over the other two bunkers. Yow, yikes, and all. My subsequent recovery shot from the right bunker just short of the green was less intimidating, but more successful.

I can't say that the course embodies all of my favorite features, as it is narrow, fairly flat, fairly straight, and the greens don't contain a lot of contour. You won't hear my favorite golf phrase from the announcers much this weekend - "severely undulating." What it does have is a demand for accuracy off the tee, rough that, even at lengths much lower than the players are finding this week, was very difficult to advance from, and greens that might tend to make you miss by inches more than by feet. And it is a beautiful site. Playing it felt good, but severe - like getting the crap beat out of me by Heidi Klum.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Matt_Ward

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2008, 04:01:17 PM »
George:

TP/S is a wasted effort because instead of using the existing land in a much more bold fashion you get a grouping of holes that are truly nothing more than boring and predictable. Does that it mean the layout is easy? No, the USGA has juiced the place and high scores can happen.

But, after the likes of WF/W and especially Oakmont this is a big time letdown. Sad to say, future Opens will opt for the public realm because of the bidding process the USGA will reap and because many more private clubs will either opt out for $$ reasons and hassle to their membership or simply because their existing facilities can't handle the serious growth that the USA national championship has become.

One further thing - the re-working by Rees Jones did nothing more than lengthen the layout and minus a few of the greens pushed closer to the canyons that surround the layout the overall aspect of the architecture is as exciting as a TV dinner you pick up at the supermarket. Pre-packaged to the max with little, if any, real zest and gusto.

Jordan Wall

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2008, 04:18:11 PM »
I dont have time to go really deep into my thoughts, but from what I see on televison, the course looks a lot better than what I had thought.  Sure, it is straightforward, maybe simple architecture, but that does not make it bad.  Sure the greens are not the boldest in the world, but that does not make it bad either.  And sure the bunkering may not be perfect, but that again does not make it bad either.

I for one love #3.  I saw Padraig Harrington make a double bogey with a 9-iron in his hand the first day, and with the bank shaved there that is a hell of a hole.  If I had more time to watch I'm sure others made high numbers there as well.  For how short that hole is, it plays remarkably fair and really makes the players think a lot.

I liked the sideboard effect of that front right pin on #4.  The shaved banks are also something that needs to be commended - really well done on the USGA's part.  Despite the ugly water hazard, #18 should be a great finishing hole and has already provided a lot of weird scores (high and low!).  Though there are not really any short par-4's, the course seems to be full of good holes.

Overall, there is nothing wrong with a course full of good holes.  It just does not stack well when other US Open courses are full of great holes.  Bottom line, Torrey may not be the best course in the world, but it looks like a solid test, and one that is better than most are giving it credit for.

Nick Pozaric

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2008, 05:05:30 PM »
I played it a few years ago and can remember maybe 2 holes, 3 and 18.  I keep seeing the holes over and over again on TV and cant remember them to save my life.  Just not a very unique or memorable course

Adam Clayman

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2008, 07:05:38 PM »
The greens do not look like greens rolling at 13.5. The micro breaks today, look unreadable. Contrary slopes seem to be the major difference from the old TP/S where the tilted plates allowed for creative putting.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

jeffwarne

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 07:38:21 PM »
Maybe it's the primetime, but I'm still enjoying this Open.

I'm seeing a lot of interesting greens(at the speed they're playing) and it's nice to see the pros having to actually use a driver AND shape the ball.

I'll take this over Whistling Straits or Medinah anytime
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sam Morrow

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2008, 07:43:11 PM »
I really don't feel like beating Torrey Pines down, it's not the best course around but certainly it's not bad. All I know is that it's producing an entertaining Open and that's all we should really care about. I think this is one of those cases where we shouldn't examine the GCA merits of a course but instead examine the product it's putting out.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2008, 08:10:04 PM »
I know it is the longest US Open course. But is the US Open course with the largest greens? 
Compared to Oakmont, there have been about 1000% more long putts (25' +) that have been sunk. Does it have the straightest greens?

 As a general rule I don't want to watch a major on a course I see on TV every year. Like other rules, I allow exceptions.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2008, 08:25:57 PM »
-I have heard Reese Jones name more times than I could ever imagine.
-I kinda wish they just played at Chambers Bay this year instead.
-Luckily the golf makes up for that sad excuse for an interesting golf course.
-But the views, Oh Johnny Miller tell me about the views one more time. Or was that Berman??

Willie_Dow

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2008, 09:17:32 PM »
I am very impressed by the effort the USGA has given thought to the Publick Links concept, and foster-ford going toward Cobbs Creek, here in Philly.
Is it a possibillity ?

John Kirk

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2008, 09:43:12 PM »
I'm enjoying the tournament immensely.

Is anybody else here tired of Johnny Miller's analysis?  Virtually every player or shot assessment is either a discussion of how the player executed a shot wrong, or how afraid they are.  These are, after all, the bravest and most talented players in the world, and Miller just spends all day discussing how they will fail.

Ben Voelker

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 09:57:53 PM »
I went to grad school a few years ago at UCSD and did take advantage of that opportunity to play Torrey Pines South a number of times while I was out there (although being a poor student, I couldn't always afford the $40 greens fee!)

As for the course, I would tend to agree that it is not that interesting.  I was surprised to find the greens to be relatively flat and very uninteresting, especially during daily play when the greens don't play nearly as fast.  In general, I would agree that there were very few uneven lines and the course is definitely very flat except for 13 approach.  Furthermore, I found many of the holes to play in very similar fashion as other holes, such as #4 and #12 (obsurdly long 4's), #1, #5 and #17 (slight dogleg 4's with elevated greens and front bunkering, maybe #7 could be included as well) and even #11 and #16 (long par 3 with front bunkering, although #11 fits a fade and #16 fits a draw better).  That's seven holes, none of which are particularly interesting and quite repetitive.  I think it's hard to consider a course great with that little variety provided.

With that said, I think there are a number of holes that are quite interesting, including #3, #7, #8, #13 and #18.  I really enjoyed playing #3, which always plays about 150 for regular play and allows plenty of room right for a bailout, but is a particularly diffcult save when the pins are left.  I always liked #7 because you need to really get your drive out close to the bunker on the left for the best angle into the green, which allows for some thought off the tee.  I think #8 is interesting simply because it's quite uphill with a shallow green and I always found it quite awkward.  I really like #13 as those front bunkers are killer and I think it's very hard to appreciate just how big the elevation change in front of the green is just from seeing it on TV, which leads to a tough wedge after a layup.  I liked #18 as well as it provides a golfer like me a nice risk/reward second shot if I hit a good drive.

In summary, I guess I don't think that TPS is a great course in general, but I do think there are a few holes that are somewhere between good and great.  I do think they did the regular players a bit of a disservice with the difficulty of the redesign.  I know from my experience that it was much more difficult to get a time on the North than the South as many of the "regulars" just couldn't enjoy a round on the new and improved South.  I suppose in the end, Torrey probably does well with two courses, so the residents can enjoy the North and they can get their $190 greens fees from the out-of-towners on the South.

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2008, 12:02:50 AM »
Ben, great "detail."

George, I haven't played the course and haven't watched too much of the action, so not much "detail" in these comments.

*Torrey Pines the venue has produced an entertaining tournament.  Aside from what happened at the 72nd hole at Winged Foot, as far as entertainment value Torrey Pines beats WFW and Oakmont.  Mike Davis seems to deserve a great deal of credit for this outcome(?).   

*The on-site fans seem to love it, despite what looks like a zoo on TV.  The atmosphere reminds me of the scene at Bethpage Black.  The cheer "Let's go Rocco" was great.  All that fun is good to witness.

*Can't get enough of the 3rd and the 13th.  Haven't been able to distinguish the par 4s like Ben, except that I'm impressed that Tiger has doubled #1 twice.

*Agree with Adam, the greens don't look like they're rolling 13 to me--seems like "urban legend" promoted by the USGA.

*The bunkering doesn't appeal.  When one guy is the "Open Doctor" this would seem to be inevitable, if you don't like his style.  The fairway bunkers are pansy, shallow, uninspired bunkers.

*The cart paths are glaringly prominent, like Pebble, and  pond on 18 has to be the most hideous feature ever on a US Open course.  The idea of having that pond on a ocean cliff-side course is just ridiculous.  I hope it has nothing to do with the outcome tomorrow.



Jim Nugent

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2008, 12:27:30 AM »
For a completely different take on Torrey, see Lou Duran's post in the Torrey vs Pebble thread.  Hope others will respond to Lou. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2008, 07:40:18 AM »
I have not watched much of the tournament so far due to travel ... just the back nine yesterday and a bit on Thursday.  Seems like it is making for an exciting enough event, though.  :)

My overriding thought is of bifurcation -- that what makes a good course for the Tour pros is diverging more and more from what makes a good course for everyone else, to the point that the two lists of courses will soon be entirely separate.

wsmorrison

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2008, 07:53:54 AM »
My overriding thought is of bifurcation -- that what makes a good course for the Tour pros is diverging more and more from what makes a good course for everyone else, to the point that the two lists of courses will soon be entirely separate.

Tom,

If you care to, please give some examples of course designs that demonstrate the most bifurcation between tour player and others as well as some courses that have the least amount of bifurcation.  I'm trying to grasp what specific design and topographic features can account for this.  Certainly, carry distance is an important factor, maybe the most important, in creating high bifurcation.  Elevation changes are another factor.  I guess internal slopes on greens and the demands of the surrounds are others.  Maintenance practices yield bifurcation as well, depending upon the site.   

In my mind, I think of Shinnecock Hills as having a low bifurcation.  It is playable and challenging for tour players and everyone else.  To me, that is part of its relative uniqueness and greatness. 



John Kavanaugh

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2008, 09:39:06 AM »
I am one who has played the new Torrey and loved it.  I see years and years of full tee sheets down the road of golfers of every skill level having a great time.  How can you fault a design that brings as much happiness to as many different people as any course in the world?

Michael Blake

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Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2008, 09:55:54 AM »
Wayne and Tom,

I'm wondering if the bifurcation is simply a result of set-up/maintencence rather than design.

Fast greens, extremely penal rough, fairways narrowed considerably, brutal hole locations....


Though I guess a 500+yd par 4 and  a600+yd par 5 is certainly a design "problem" that is leading the divergent trend. 


Jay Flemma

Re: Please DETAIL your thoughts on Torrey Pines South
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2008, 10:23:09 AM »
Honestly?  The course is growing on me...I liked La Costa North better but there's some pretty good holes out there and it's been an exciting tournament...made other-worldly by the finish yesterday.

When entire media tent goes "OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!" twice, you know there's some s%$t going down.

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