[Mike_Cirba]

The following is meant as a fun and educational challenge.   It is not meant to cause pain and bleeding, so please let's keep the dialogue instructional and the tone conversational, respectful, and proper.

I certainly would encourage all of the professional architects here to participate, but let's see what you budding "amateur architects" can do, as well.   

The year is 1910 and a prominent club has just purchased just under 120 acres that includes a clubhouse, a public road, a quarry, and is L-shaped.   

It looks like this;



The scale you see at the bottom indicates 800 feet, broken up into chunks of 200, 400, 600, and 800.   

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to route a 6200 yard golf course on the property in a way that maximizes the features.   Feel free to go to Google and utilize Topographical maps as well.

Let's see who can design something that differs the most wholly and fundamentally from what was originally laid out, yet still retains golfing value and challenge.

Thanks!   

[TEPaul]

Mike:

For my part and from my perspective, it would be virtually impossible for me to route that golf course better than it is now and that is precisely why I think it really is one of the best golf courses and some of the very best architecture in the world.

As you know I'm not a big fan of ranking golf courses but nevertheless, Merion East has always been in my top handful in the world and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

True enough, but I'm not necessarily asking for someone to produce a "better" design.

I'm asking for someone to produce a significantly "different" design of 6200 yards on that property, as it existed in 1910.

Remember...the contention that David Moriarty and Tom MacWood are asserting is that Hugh Wilson and the Committee were such novices that they could never have done the routing that got built and opened in 1912.   

What I'm asking is simple...let's see something markedly different on the same property.

Is there another way to do it without routing the holes north of Ardmore avenue North/South, and the holes south of Ardmore avenue East/West?

What type of expert knowledge would it have taken for Wilson and the Committee to have understood this very obvious fact?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

If I were to make any architectural suggestions at all for Merion East, at this point, it would only involve some selective fairway expansions on about 4-5 holes, and it would include just a single bunker---eg Flynn's proposed bunker on the tee shot on #14 surrounded by fairway to the road. I think that particularly, would make the hole strategically more optional and interesting.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kelly,

I'm not sure that disagreeing with the contention that the routing of Merion's property required some prior knowledge unattainable by the committee at that point is being somehow disrespectful or uncivil.  I would also suggest that if you believe the "Revisionism" thread by Tom MacWood wasn't an attempt to make a Merion-related point, I think you missed where he was coming from with his editorializing.

As far as the Merion property, I think it's an interesting case study.

My contention is simply this;

Sometimes, I believe the constraints of a property dictate or heavily suggest the routing.   As a professional, do you see many options that would be wholly different than what got created originally?

[Garland Bayley]

'Atta boy Kelly!

[TEPaul]

"Remember...the contention that David Moriarty and Tom MacWood are asserting is that Hugh Wilson and the Committee were such novices that they could never have done the routing that got built and opened in 1912."

MikeC:

Yeah, yeah, right, that's been their contention all along, right? In my opinion, Wilson and committee probably did a dozen or more routing and design plans but that's just my opinion, and I have absolutely nothing to base it on other than just my own shoddy intuition.      

[Mike_Cirba]

Kelly,

While I can understand the frustration some here have with the entire Merion topic, and especially on non_related threads, I'm not sure how what I've asked here is some type of threadjack?

I posted the name Merion clearly in the title so those who feel that way could simply skip it.

Garland,

If you ever decide to write an interesting post here, or even one remotely architecturally on_topic, please let me know.

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't been out to play anything new in awhile. So I have been a little bit dry on architecture since posting on Chambers Bay, The Home Course, and Gold Mountain Olympic after playing them last year.

But you are right. I will try a new thread on something I observed in my game on Monday.

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Mike,

Here's the thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35031.0.html

How did I do?

[DMoriarty]

Mike:

For my part and from my perspective, it would be virtually impossible for me to route that golf course better than it is now and that is precisely why I think it really is one of the best golf courses and some of the very best architecture in the world.

As you know I'm not a big fan of ranking golf courses but nevertheless, Merion East has always been in my top handful in the world and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Interesting.  Because in the past you have been quite critical of the original routing of Merion East. Why the change of heart.

By your logic, if Barker's routing was actually on the 117 acres instead of on only 100 acres, then you would have to conclude that his routing would have been about the same as what they ultimately came up with, wouldn't you?   Only with 14-16 shorter, and the addition of the land behind the clubhouse (that Macdonald wanted to add?)   

[Barker did not say that his routing was only on 100 acres.  Connell offered something like 100 acres or whatever it takes for a golf course.  Given the somewhat open wording of the Connell offer, and the timing of the various visits, it is quite possible that the Barker routing included the Dallas Estate property.  I will clarify this in the next draft.]

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I can't believe you put up another Merion thread    I realize no one has to view them but do you really think it is doing this site any good?  I was tempted to suggest to Ran he shut down the whole site for a two week cooling off (find a life) period but held back doing so.  Maybe someone else will make the suggestion.  It might help all of us in the long run.
Mark

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'd get Tom Doak and Uncle George to build me a Macdonald tribute course.



OK I apologise, I do realise that this stuff stopped being funny round about when last we were young.


Does anyone else long for the days when you tuned into GCA.com because it was a fun place to hang out and learn stuff?

[Mike Golden]

Merion was always one of the courses on my list to someday have the opportunity to play until all this bullshit on this site about the golf course.  Now I could care less.

Thanks, all of you, for the way you have absolutely trashed a golf course in my mind with your endless squabbling and arguments about something that has thrived for almost 100 years.  I sure hope the membership never reads any of this because, if they did, the last thing anyone would want was for one more GCA participant to step foot on site.

[Garland Bayley]

'Atta boy Kelly!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You have changed, evidenced by your response to Garland. A few years ago that type of response would have been way out of character for you, but you have definately changed.  

Kelly,

Piling on is a penalty in any league.   

You and I were having a reasonable disagreement and I thought his comment was inappropriate and uncalled for because I am indeed very sincere in what I'm asking here and I think it makes an important point on multiple levels, including the Merion discussions..

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi Mike,

Here's the thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35031.0.html

How did I do?

Very well...I hope others weigh in.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
I can't believe you put up another Merion thread    I realize no one has to view them but do you really think it is doing this site any good?  I was tempted to suggest to Ran he shut down the whole site for a two week cooling off (find a life) period but held back doing so.  Maybe someone else will make the suggestion.  It might help all of us in the long run.
Mark

Mark,

I'm not sure I see the damage in what I asked here?   

My lord...take a look at the thread titles on the first couple of pages here and please tell me again where your feigned shock at this thread is appropriate.   

I won't get into our recent personal disagreements, but I sure as hell can think of a lot more damaging, meaningless, and self-promoting threads that have been started on this site.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

For my part and from my perspective, it would be virtually impossible for me to route that golf course better than it is now and that is precisely why I think it really is one of the best golf courses and some of the very best architecture in the world.

As you know I'm not a big fan of ranking golf courses but nevertheless, Merion East has always been in my top handful in the world and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Interesting.  Because in the past you have been quite critical of the original routing of Merion East. Why the change of heart.

David,

I don't understand why you keep mentioning the present routing of Merion East and the original routing of Merion East as if they are one and the same?

Your IMO piece leads off with a bunch of modern laudatory comments discussing the routing, but that has very little to do with the original course routing that opened in 1912.

Fully seven of the 18 holes have been changed from a routing perspective, most of them by 1924.   

The original routing was perhaps 65% as good as today's routing.

Why the effort to make them seem synonymous?   Just the three parallel holes that all crossed Ardmore Avenue alone make it much less compelling of a course than today's.

Tom Doak emphatically noted this major routing change in his "Confidential Guide" which you quote from, mentioning how he stated how well every inch of the property was used as if he were talking about the 1912 routing.   Why didn't you include that section?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Golden,

I can't believe you would let a bunch of nattering nincompoops on some website arguing about the origins of Merion dissuade your enthusiasm for playing there someday.   

We all get a bit frustrated with various things here, but don't let that sap your zest for the courses out there.    I know you'd find Merion well worth a visit, despite us knuckleheads.


Guys,

This site has survived the Bethpage Restoration wars, the Hollywood wars, the MULTIPLE Rees Jones attack wars, the Sandpines wars, the first Merion wars, the Patrick Mucci against everyone wars, the Michelle Wie wars, the "The Bridge" wars...even the fu*king idiotic cheater line wars...

I think the rest of you can truly survive a few of us trying to nail this down.

I regret some of the personal animosity, but I also recall a day when architects and clubmembers were compared with IDI Amin and all sorts of stuff, so don't pretend that this is something new at odds with the historic peace and tranquility of this website.

If things have become so politically correct that we can't have a passionate disagreeement, then I sometimes think that some  of you guys simply wish you had something in golf that you cared about enough to argue as vehemently as we have.

[Mike_Cirba]

And finally...despite the slings and arrows, I did have a sincere question/contention here, and it is simply this;

When one hears that Hugh Wilson and his committee were way too green to have routed the original Merion course, it sounds reasonable on the face of it, especially when the author makes no attempt to differentiate between the original 1912 routing and today's routing that has been lauded as nearly perfect.   

In point of fact, the original routing is roughly 65% the same as todays, and not nearly as good.

So the real question is, what level of expertise would the committee have needed to route the golf course?

Let's recall that it was 120 acres, roughly, and they built a course just over 6200 yards.

Now, if that 120 acres of land was a rolling, largely untreed, rectangular property with a few choice natural hazards like a creek, one could see any number of possibilities in how the course might be routed.

However, this was not the case.

What I presented above, and what the Merion committee was presented with,  is a very narrow, L-shaped property with some serious limitations like a big, ole quarry, existing structures, a public road crossing, a real estate component next door, and basic Pennsylvania clay.

The point of my question was...is it possible to design a good, reasonably challenging course of 6200 yards on this property by anyone...professional or amateur...where the holes on the north side of Ardmore Ave. don't flow north and south, and the holes on the south side don't flow east and west?

I mean...how else would you route it?   What special talent or insight did it take to do what they did, considering that the original layout was NOT today's, and that fully 7 of the 18 holes were changed in whole or part by 1924?

If these are questions that don't belong on an architectural website, then perhaps I'm in the wrong place here.     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

There's a difference.

I don't have an agenda.

As a Devil's Advocate, I'll take any side of a good discussion....... at times.

You're too heavily invested in Wilson/Merion to be objective.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

No, the real question is, how would you expect us to reroute it without a topo?

That said, I think most modern gca's would first look at placing Ardmore Ave and other OB areas on the hook side rather than the slice side, all other factors being equal.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

There's a difference.

I don't have an agenda.

You're too heavily invested in Wilson/Merion to be objective.

Patrick,

As a self-professed Macdonaldphile, I'm not sure how you can say that.  

We're all coming from different biases and perspectives, certainly, but do you honestly think that David and Tom MacWood are any less slanted in their perspective or motivated simply by the pure light of honest, unbiased, personally-neutral research?  

Since we all know where everyone is coming from, let's stick to the facts.

The facts are that there isn't a smidgeon of proof the Macdonald or Whigham or both routed Merion, at least to date.

Until such time as proof surfaces, the historical record stands.

What's unfair about that?

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

No, the real question is, how would you expect us to reroute it without a topo?

That said, I think most modern gca's would first look at placing Ardmore Ave and other OB areas on the hook side rather than the slice side, all other factors being equal.

Jeff,

You're correct on both counts. 

On the first, I was hoping someone with some technical skill would bring over a topo from Google or somewhere else and give us some type of template to work with.   

I do truly think this is a VERY worthwhile exercise, despite those who've questioned my motives.

On the second, I agree that would be preferable, but the trick is how you get there with a fixed clubhouse location. 

Still...I truly and sincerely would like to see someone knowledgeable try this.

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