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M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sebonack
« on: June 11, 2008, 10:25:35 PM »
How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Jack Nicklaus was not involved ?

How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Tom Doak was not involved ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 02:04:47 AM »
Who on this board (besides Jim Urbina and Jim Lipe and Mark Hissey) would have enough knowledge of what went on to answer either question?

You might as well ask if Sebonack would be better if Michael Pascucci had not been involved, and Donald Trump had done the deal.  ;)


Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 05:25:53 AM »
Who on this board (besides Jim Urbina and Jim Lipe and Mark Hissey) would have enough knowledge of what went on to answer either question?

You might as well ask if Sebonack would be better if Michael Pascucci had not been involved, and Donald Trump had done the deal.  ;)


I wonder how it would have looked with The Donald designing it. :D
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 05:55:18 AM »
edit
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 05:02:16 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 06:16:41 AM »
Between Tom and Jack they couldn't come up with one location for a waterfall. ;D
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Jim Nugent

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 07:18:49 AM »
One way it would be different if Tom wasn't involved: the routing.  Jack's guys came up with an initial routing.  Tom then did his own routing, completely by topo maps IIRC.  They used Tom's. 


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 07:23:42 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

As to Sebonack, you can take Doak, and/or Trump, and I'll even throw in Pascucci and TEPaul,  I'll take Melania.

John Pflum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 08:07:00 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

As to Sebonack, you can take Doak, and/or Trump, and I'll even throw in Pascucci and TEPaul,  I'll take Melania.

I'm with you!  :-) 
--
jvdp

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 08:15:00 AM »
Wow. ouch.

I am asking for  opinions of people with knowledge greater than I have in the golf architecture.

I played Sebonack yesterday and liked alot of things, but it made me ask that question.

I think its a very fair question, especially one for this board, regardless of whether the question has been asked 100 times.

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2008, 08:15:39 AM »
What would a painting look like if Pablo Picasso and Andy Warhol collaborated on a piece together?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 09:26:59 AM »
The Donald could not have used the Faz. He already turned down the site saying it was unbuildable.

Is that her areola?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:48:54 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 10:14:51 AM »
I played it a few weeks ago for the first time.  Having played many courses from both architects, my guess is it is 80% Doak and 20% Nicklaus and that the 20% of Nicklaus was probably very helpful.  Where that 20% is would be time consuming to state but you could see it in styling on some of the holes and in hazard locations/placement.  I have the Sebonack book but not yet read it.   Maybe this question can be answered better in there.  I would have assumed that Nicklaus would be most concerned about making sure each hole tested golf shots more so than Tom.  I think if you played it a few times, you could guage it much better each time around.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 02:19:10 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

.... I'll take Melania.

With all that silicone?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 09:13:02 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

.... I'll take Melania.

With all that silicone?

I'll take her just the way she is.

She's gorgeous, with a great figure, and I suspect a personality and intellect to match.

McCloskey

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 09:39:50 PM »
You can have your choice, Melania or Sebonack.   Which would you want to be yours?
Just trying to save the thread.   ;D

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 10:03:37 PM »
Glad this thread went somewhere.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 10:39:27 PM »
MSS,

Tom Doak ended the thread appropriately with the first response.

The thread is dead, Melania lives. ;D

John Moore II

Re: Sebonack
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2008, 11:27:18 AM »
How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Jack Nicklaus was not involved ?

How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Tom Doak was not involved ?

Does it matter? The course is done and I feel certain they will not raze the entire thing in an experiment to see if the two men could design better individually. This question is akin to asking how much would NGLA be different is either Macdonald or Raynor were not involved and the other did the work individually. It really doesn't matter.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2008, 11:35:18 AM »
You can have your choice, Melania or Sebonack.   Which would you want to be yours?
Just trying to save the thread.   ;D

Sebonack, no question.
And trust me, I think she's gorgeous . . .


-Ted

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2008, 12:56:09 PM »
How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Jack Nicklaus was not involved ?

How much better or worse would Sebonack be if Tom Doak was not involved ?

Does it matter? The course is done and I feel certain they will not raze the entire thing in an experiment to see if the two men could design better individually. This question is akin to asking how much would NGLA be different is either Macdonald or Raynor were not involved and the other did the work individually. It really doesn't matter.

Maybe it doesn't matter.
I am just trying to have a frank discussion about a golf course that has recieved alot of press and involves two of the biggest names in the business.

I understand that there are people here who can't express their opinions or thoughts on the subject. But I know there are some here who have a great knowledge of Doak and Jack's design strategies, and could quite possibly explain what the two might have done differently with say the green complex on 8.

If you want to dicuss golfweeks rating system, or make a lifetime played list, fine with me.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 03:32:40 PM »
...
Is that her areola?

I was wondering the same thing. Great minds ... ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 05:24:11 PM »
...
Is that her areola?

I was wondering the same thing. Great minds ... ;)


Uhh, I was think more along the lines of dirty minds think alike...

If it is her areola or if it isn't....who cares, you have a whole slew of aerolas at your fingertips, and then some!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2008, 05:29:57 PM »
M. Shea:

If you want to compare the styles of myself and Mr. Nicklaus, I think it would be more informative to do so by comparing Ballyneal and Dismal River Club -- although that discussion seems to be considered unfair here as well.  On those projects we both had clients who let us build pretty much what we wanted to build, and the results are very different golf courses in my opinion.  I wish I could participate more in that discussion, but I probably should not, since political correctness seems to be in order on that subject here.

The problem I have with your suggested speculation about Sebonack is that it would be almost entirely SPECULATION on everyone else's part, and thus keep perpetuating the stereotypes of our work instead of actually analyzing our differences.  We did have quite a few differences in what we wanted to do over the course of building Sebonack, but my account of them would be different than Jack's, and we both agreed from the start that if we were going to work together on the project, we wouldn't do that to each other.

I would merely suggest that if you ever were going to have that conversation about Sebonack, the starting point should not be what Jack or I might have done separately, but how different would it have looked if somebody else had built it other than my associates and construction guys?  I think that was a big part of its success, and it's one of the main differences between Ballyneal and Dismal River, as well.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2008, 05:52:14 PM »
Tom, Since I didn't get a chance, could you tell us all how you feel BN has matured?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Sebonack
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 08:38:18 PM »
Adam:

I played Ballyneal on Sunday, and I thought it has matured greatly since the last time I was out there, and I went out of my way to find Dave Hensley to tell him as much.  The greens were excellent, and just as importantly for that course, the approaches were excellent.

I noticed the scoring was not too low in the big member-guest ... although at least somebody broke par on their better-ball, unlike the Sebonack member-guest last fall!  I suspect the course will just get trickier to score on from here on out, although just like its links cousins overseas, it will still play somewhat easy on calm days.