[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Merion for the Open and now this announcement.  Half my vacation is already accounted for 5 years in advance!

http://www.usopen.com/en_US/news/articles/2008-06-11/200806111213218620789.html
(posted at bottom of interview)

[Bruce Leland]

All I can say is "What took them so long?" 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I love NGLA, but this has to be the biggest joke ever for serious competition.  The course will be a pitch and putt at best.
   1---drivable with 3 wood
   2---drivable with long iron
   3---driver and wedge
   5---easily reached in 2 with probably mid-iron
   6---wedge
   7---easily reached in 2
   8---long iron wedge
   9---easily reached in 2
  10--driver short iron
  11--long iron and then short iron
  12--drive and a pitch
  14--long iron and short iron, maybe driver up near green
  15--driver and pitch
  16--driver and wedge
  17--long iron and pitch,  maybe drivable
  18--driver and mid iron at most

This course may have great architectural merit, but this is not what is worthy of the most important amateur level of competition.  Fifty years ago it was a sensational place for this competition; this is one course that technology has compromised for this level of competition.

[jeffwarne]

Robert,
Not every hole will be downwind
I think you exaggerate a bit for many players (but not long hitters)

It sounds like the long iron and fairway wood are being brought back into the game.

#5's a par 4 now anyway
play 7 as a par 4
Now it's par 71
not that any of that matters
No doubt some new tees will be built=and there's room-how about 18 from the right side of the road by the gate?
9 tee can go back-as can 10 (and many others)

I think it will be great (no matter what they do with par and tees)

Even if they play the course as you describe, won't it be great to see them there

[Dean Paolucci]

Length aside, if the greens are at throw up speed (13+ ft) I trust the course will protect itself admirably.  In addition, let's remember that this is a team match play competition not a medal event where a case might be made that it is not an ideal venue.  Length or lack of length does not alter the quality of the stage for this type of serious competition.

[SPDB]

RMD:

Its a match play competition, so I'm not sure your analysis is relevant. NGLA will be a terrific match play course.

[jeffwarne]

I for one hope they don't raise the green speeds, but rather use some of the great pins available on such greens.
13 on the stimp would eliminate all but the most boring pins
Build some tees to offset modern equipment, don't ruin the game around the greens

or do nothing-the best idea

[John Moore II]

Man, this announcement makes me want to apply to be reinstated as an amateur just to try and qualify.

[Mark Chaplin]

Sounds like an excellent matchplay venue especially if the breeze is up. I recently played Chicago Golf Club which I believe played around 6800 for the Walker Cup, one well known short hitting GB&I player couldn't carry the cross bunkers off #17 and a long hitting US player drove #14 and 3 putted. Length and par are completely irrelevent in matchplay.

As those interested in GCA lets celebrate a major event going to a course of modest length rather than feeding the frenzy to build 8000yd long courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

You mean the course designed by Devereaux Emmett??   

How cool is that?!

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

Are you setting the line, like an over/under, on the clubs on those holes ?

If so, I'd like to wager a few quid.
Especially on # 3 and # 9.
And, if the wind is up I think you'll have to modify your selections.

If those kids could hit every shot as you describe, they'd be on the Ryder Cup team, not the Walker Cup team.

Tiger didn't hit the clubs you cite when he played there in 1996, and the wind was rather calm on a misty day.

Jeff Warne,

Going to the right side of the road on # 18 negatively alters the angle of attack.  I think there may be a new tee back by the gate on the left side, closer to the 17th green, although, TEPaul would argue against it.
Therefore, you know it's the right move.

As to # 7, there's plenty of room to add a tee further back.
This would bring the road hole bunkers more into play.

Showcasing NGLA on National TV will be a big plus for golf.

As to green speed.

11 combined with firm conditions, with some of those hole locations is plenty of pace to present a challenge to those fellows.

It should be a GREAT event.

[Peter Wagner]

Wow, great news for both NGLA and the USGA! 

[Phil McDade]

Well, the opportunity to even see NGLA on TV, much less in person, is wonderful news for golfing and golf architecture.

But, re. Tiger and 1996, that's eons ago in terms of golf technology -- close to 20 years when the Walker Cup arrives in 2013. I agree that match-play makes the notion of par somewhat irrelevant -- but only somewhat. Ideal golf courses, in my mind -- regardless of whether it's match play or stroke play -- ask/demand players to play shots of all kinds. The very best courses under tournament conditions ask that of players, AND provide options/risk/rewards for how to play holes. Will NGLA be able to do that?

To those who might know both Chicago and NGLA, how will they compare? I was struck by how the Walker Cup players at Chicago seemed to overwhelm the course with their length. On the other hand, that was a terrific Walker Cup, coming down to (I believe) the last match and last putt.

[Bill_McBride]

Robert,
Not every hole will be downwind
I think you exaggerate a bit for many players (but not long hitters)

It sounds like the long iron and fairway wood are being brought back into the game.

#5's a par 4 now anyway
play 7 as a par 4
Now it's par 71
not that any of that matters
No doubt some new tees will be built=and there's room-how about 18 from the right side of the road by the gate?
9 tee can go back-as can 10 (and many others)

I think it will be great (no matter what they do with par and tees)

Even if they play the course as you describe, won't it be great to see them there

Jeff, I played Nairn yesterday with our traveling group (site of 1999 Walker Cup).  On at least six holes my caddy took me back -- WAY back -- to show me where they built new tees to lengthen the course to offset the new distances of these top young amateurs.  I agree that NGLA will be a great venue.

Now where the devil will we stay?  Manhattan?

By the way, Nairn is terrific and very underrated, IMO.  Wonderful string of holes out and back, with the Moray Firth in view on every hole.

[JC Jones]

Man, this announcement makes me want to apply to be reinstated as an amateur just to try and qualify.

No kidding.  Ive got 4 years to get my game from a 5 to a +2 so I can play well in Am tourneys in 2012.  It is likely my only shot at playing that course.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

It is true that  match play will make par less meaningful.  However, the elite college players hit a ball that even few see on the PGA tour.  My neighbor in SD who is probably the best in collegiate golf is the 3rd or 4th longest on his team with a 290 carry average with his 3wood.  It  is amazing how long the younger players pound the ball.  And by 2013 they will have raised the quality of play beyond what we are seeing this moment.

[PCCraig]

This is shocking only becuase last summer when I was caddying at TCC Brookline, every member said that the club was a shoe in for the 2013 Walker Cup (100 years since Francis Q.) and they were already planning course changes to beef up the course for the longer modern golfers.

[George Pazin]

Hope they televise a lot of it.

[John Blain]

Pat Craig,

You beat me to it!  I thought TCC was a proverbial lock to host the 2013 Walker Cup matches. From everything that I have read and heard over the past couple of years I was under the impression that the members of TCC were virtually planning on it!

I know they didn't want the U.S. Open but I figured the Walker Cup would be a wonderful way to honor the 100th anniversary of Ouimet's historical achievement.

What a shame - unless there is something that happened between the members of TCC and the USGA....

John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil McDade,

Are you sure that Tiger isn't shorter today than he was in 1996 ?

As to TCC, NGLA should have gotten the Walker Cup instead of Merion.

Merion has had plenty of TV exposure, especially with the U.S. Amateur and now the U.S. Open.  Awarding the Walker Cup to Merion was a mistake IMHO, NGLA should have gotten it in 2009, but, done is done.

RMD,

If your post isn't prime exhibit 1A for a competition ball, I don't know what is.

[Gerry B]

heard the news a couple of weeks back - returning to the site of the 1st walker cup - great news

what i love about the walker cup is the list of courses that have hosted  / will host. crowds are small and as it is match play - no need for the usga to inject steroids. less pressure for the club to deal with re infrastructure and no ropes per say

2013 - NGLA
2011 - Royal Aberdeen
2009 - Merion -
2007 - Royal County Down
2005 - Chicago Golf Club - attended and it was fabulous
2003 - Ganton

hard to beat that list

other courses that have hosted include:

Shinnecock
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Brookline
Garden City
St Andrews
Kittansett
Minikahda
milwaukee country club
Baltimore Country Club
Quaker Ridge
interlachen
Winged Foot
Sunningdal
Hoylake
Porthcawl
royal st george's
muirfield
nairn
turnberry
portmarnock

beat that lineup of courses!

[Phil McDade]

Phil McDade,

Are you sure that Tiger isn't shorter today than he was in 1996 ?

Tiger averaged 294.8 yds in 1997, his first full year on the Tour.

He averaged 302.4 in 2007. (stats from PGA.com)

In 1997, he ranked 2nd on tour in driving average, behind only Daly (7.2 yds behind him, but 7.3 yds ahead of the 3rd longest driver.)

In 2007, he ranked T-12 on tour in driving average, 12.8 yds behind driving distance leader Bubba Watson.

So, he's longer than he was 10 years ago, but a select few PGA pros have caught up to, and passed, him. By any measure, he is still one of the longest players in the game.

[wsmorrison]

As to TCC, NGLA should have gotten the Walker Cup instead of Merion.

Merion has had plenty of TV exposure, especially with the U.S. Amateur and now the U.S. Open.  Awarding the Walker Cup to Merion was a mistake IMHO, NGLA should have gotten it in 2009, but, done is done.

Awarding the 2009 Walker Cup to Merion was a mistake?  I think stating that NGLA should have gotten the WC instead of Merion is a regrettable statement on Pat's part.  Between Merion and NGLA, only Merion has made itself available to the USGA for events on a consistent basis.  They've held a USGA championship every decade since the 1900s.  They have a history of devoting themselves to amateur tournaments, both locally and nationally.  Why aren't they deserving of a Walker Cup regardless of NGLA?  Pat conveniently ignores the dynamics of the selection process.  What was NGLA's approach to the USGA?  How did it compare and contrast to other clubs in the process?

Pat would have us believe that because Merion has been on TV a fair amount over the past decades (hardly at all since 1981--2 US Amateurs and a Girls Amateur) and NGLA hasn't that it is at all relevant.  That is because Pat would rather his beloved NGLA achieve the recognition he feels it deserves and hasn't gotten yet ignores a number of factors.  Perhaps he should consider the bigger picture and not focus in on his narrow perspective. 

Merion joins a select group of American and UK courses that have held an Amateur, Open and Walker Cup.  It deserves the honor of hosting the Walker Cup (its 18th USGA championship) for what it has consistently given back to golf and the merits of its course.  In no way should the award be considered a mistake.  That is a ridiculous and biased notion.  Please, Pat.  I am delighted that NGLA got the next US Walker Cup site.  It is good for NGLA and ought to be a fantastic and memorable event.  Why not enjoy the moment and stop with the negativity towards Merion.  I hope you rethink the mistake notion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil McDade,

Do you think 8 yards in additional driving distance makes any difference in the play of NGLA ?

Are you familiar with the defenses against long drives at NGLA, such as on holes # 3, # 5, # 8, # 9, # 11, # 12, # 14, # 17 and # 18.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Absolutely.[/b]

I think stating that NGLA should have gotten the WC instead of Merion is a regrettable statement on Pat's part. 

Absolutely not.

Unfortunately, you can only view the issue in a provincial context.[/color]

Between Merion and NGLA, only Merion has made itself available to the USGA for events on a consistent basis.  They've held a USGA championship every decade since the 1900s.  They have a history of devoting themselves to amateur tournaments, both locally and nationally. 

That's immaterial and irrelevant.

Merion has had recent National TV exposure vis a vis the U.S. Amateur and will soon have National TV exposure vis a vis the U.S. Open.

The unique architecture at NGLA has had no National TV exposure.

You can only look at this issue in the context of what's good for Merion whereas I look at the this issue in the context of what's good for GOLF and GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE.

So, you prefer overexposure for one course, Merion, while I prefer diversity, NGLA.

If it was Maidstone, Pine Valley, Seminole, Wild Horse, Sand Hills, Friar's Head or Pacific Dunes, I'd take the same position.  Unfortunately, so would you.  That's because you're more narrowly focused, you're a "homer".
Now, that's not a bad thing in and of itself when it comes to Merion, but, it's narrow minded, provincial and doesn't expose the viewing public to unique architecture which they've never seen.

You want to deify Merion whereas I want the golfing world exposed to unique architecture.[/color]

Why aren't they deserving of a Walker Cup regardless of NGLA? 


Because they just had a U.S. Amateur and will soon have a U.S. Open.
It's TV overkill.

Let the golfing world see diverse architecture, let them see Wild Horse, Friar's Head, Sand Hills, Seminole, Pine Valley, Maidstone, anywhere, but, we don't need to see Merion again.  It doesn't broaden the viewers architectural horizons.[/color]

Pat conveniently ignores the dynamics of the selection process. 
I served with the USGA before you knew what the initials meant.
I'm intimately familiar with the dynamics, but they don't transcend the greater good.[/color]

What was NGLA's approach to the USGA? 
How did it compare and contrast to other clubs in the process?


That's immaterial to the issue.
You're so wrapped up in Merion that you can't see past Ardmore Road.
[/color]

Pat would have us believe that because Merion has been on TV a fair amount over the past decades (hardly at all since 1981--2 US Amateurs and a Girls Amateur) and NGLA hasn't that it is at all relevant. 


It's not about Merion vs NGLA you twit 
Merion just had the U.S. Amateur on TV
Merion will soon have the U.S. Open on TV.
They've had ample TV exposure.
The other courses I mentioned haven't, and they should.
It's better for golf and golf course ARCHITECTURE if the TV exposure is more diverse.
Telecasting any of the clubs I cited would provide viewers with greater exposure to different architecture, especially unique architecture.
[/color]

That is because Pat would rather his beloved NGLA achieve the recognition he feels it deserves and hasn't gotten yet ignores a number of factors. 


You're so far off base that it's comical.
This isn't about NGLA, it's about exposing the TV viewers to diverse architecture, not the same architecture that they've seen and will see.
[/color]

Perhaps he should consider the bigger picture and not focus in on his narrow perspective. 

Now that's really, really funny.
Have you looked into the mirror lately ?
I"m the one championing the "bigger picture", you're the one with the myopic view, because you can't see the bigger picture..[/color]

Merion joins a select group of American and UK courses that have held an Amateur, Open and Walker Cup.  It deserves the honor of hosting the Walker Cup (its 18th USGA championship) for what it has consistently given back to golf and the merits of its course. 

Oh, I see, it's all about the "Red Badge of Courage", the Big Dick Syndrome.
You still don't see the issue.
You want more and more accolades for Merion, your home course, whereas I want the golfing public to see other forms of architecture, be it Maidstone, Seminole, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Wild Horse or NGLA.[/color]

In no way should the award be considered a mistake. 

Of course it is, it's akin to a summer rerun.[/color]

That is a ridiculous and biased notion. 

It's not biased in the least.
What, am I now a part owner of Wild Horse or Pacific Dunes ?
Am I now a member of Seminole, Maidstone, Friar's Head, Sand Hills or NGLA ?

What's ridiculous is your blind obedience to Merion to the exclusion of seeing the benefits of televising diverse architecture.
That's simply ..... greed[/color]

Please, Pat.  I am delighted that NGLA got the next US Walker Cup site. 

So am I, however, had NGLA gotten the 2009 event, another great club with unique architecture might have gotten the 2013 event, and that would have provided additional exposure to the golfing public.[/color]

It is good for NGLA and ought to be a fantastic and memorable event. 

Agreed.[/color]

Why not enjoy the moment and stop with the negativity towards Merion.  I hope you rethink the mistake notion.

This is where, "you don't get it"
It has nothing to do with negativity toward Merion.
Merion is a great golf course.
But, the viewing public has recently seen Merion vis a vis the U.S. Amateur and the viewing public will see Merion again vis a vis the U.S. Open.
The viewing public has not seen NGLA, Sand Hills, Wild Horse, Seminole, Friar's Head and others, and that's the gist of my POSITIVE point.[/color]
 

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