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David Stamm

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Shinnecock vs NGLA
« on: June 11, 2008, 01:36:24 PM »
For those that have played them both, which did you prefer? I have never been to Long Island, yet alone played them, but it seems to me that until Old Macdonald is built, I can't think of two courses so close to each other that have such different design styles. I thought it would interesting to see the why's on which course appeals more to some than the other and if the choices support what each individual holds dear in terms of style, the "natural" or the "manufactured".  Let the debate begin.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 01:50:21 PM »
David:

As is the case with most things, this has been discussed many times before.  In fact Matt Ward and I have battled this off and on for years.

To very much oversimplify things, to me NGLA is fun, Shinnecock is a championship test.  I tend to prefer fun.  Thus I prefer NGLA.  Matt prefers Shinneock.


TH

Phil Benedict

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Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 02:17:27 PM »
David:

As is the case with most things, this has been discussed many times before.  In fact Matt Ward and I have battled this off and on for years.

To very much oversimplify things, to me NGLA is fun, Shinnecock is a championship test.  I tend to prefer fun.  Thus I prefer NGLA.  Matt prefers Shinneock.


TH


Tom,

This sounds like one of those "the best years of GCA are behind it" comments.  There are a lot of newbies who missed out on the glory days; revisiting old arguments can be a productive exercise for many if not all.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 02:24:45 PM »
Tom,

  In similar conditions, I have no doubt that Shinnecock is the more difficult of the two. What I was hoping to do was see why one course appeals more to one than the other without getting into the "championship course" debate. I understand that his difficult to do when discussing course comparisons, but I hope that the design virtues of the course vs the other would be what was discussed, if that makes sense.


David
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2008, 02:44:34 PM »
David,

Without having played either, I can tell you that NGLA, while beloved by the GCA set, is not universally loved outside of the GCA circle because of quirk and blind shots.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 02:53:41 PM »
Phil:

Well, I for one don't think the best days of GCA are behind us.  But that being said, it is tiresome to repeatedly rehash the same issues.  And I am tired.  Perhaps I'll get into this better when I have more energy.  But to me it's like "where should I go in Scotland?"... once you've typed the same answer 30 times, that 31st takes more mental discipline than I have to offer.   ;)

David:  so OK, your thoughtful post deserves better.  My feeling is that neither course is fully manufactured nor fully natural.  I guess NGLA is more manufactured but it's not like Shinnecock is minimalist... man if someone prefers one or the other based on this, I truly think they are taking this whole architecture thing way way way too far.

The bottom line is that NGLA seems to offer a chance at success to many golfers; Shinnecock unless played from very short tees offers that only to the best.  Now Matt Ward and Wayne Morrison will disagree with this, but that's my take and I'm sticking to it.  Note only one hosts US Opens.  But anyway, that to me seems the main difference between the two, not any style issues.

TH
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 02:59:09 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 03:06:56 PM »
Isn't this topic, with its obvious Flynn vs. Macdonald subtext, best left for the Merion threads? ;)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 03:15:11 PM »
Isn't this topic, with its obvious Flynn vs. Macdonald subtext, best left for the Merion threads? ;)


Phil, gosh no! I don't want this to go down that road!


Tom, I agree, there is no such thing as a fully natural course. I think there is absolutely manufactured courses (Shadow Creek, PGA West Stadium, The Rawls Course). I just thought it would be fun to see why some like one over the other. It's just amazing to know 2 courses that touch one another couldn't be further apart in terms of design style, or so it seems.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 03:17:47 PM »
David:

I'm just not sure they are all that far apart in terms of design style; but then again I don't care much about such things so I may be very wrong.  The bottom line to me remains how they PLAY, and I've given you my thoughts there.

But others are very into this issue - hopefully Wayne in particular will step in.  Just do note that Phil M. is right - if you want to debate the merits of design style between these two, you are heading down the path of the Merion threads.

In any case, if you're ever going to find anyone who says they prefer one over the other because of the design style, you've come to the right place.

 ;D

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 03:20:35 PM »
David,

I think you know the answer to this already.  The "Championship" test that is Shinnecock comes with everything being layed out in front of you.  Fairly standard arrangement of par 3's, 4's and 5's.  Two loops, nothing uber weird or quirky.

NGLA seems to be all about weird and quirk.  Short par 4's.  Only 3 one shot holes.  Everything a "template."

Shortish by modern standards.  Some tees right next to greens.  Many blind shots.  Windmills...

It's just a different beast.  I'm inclined to think those who like everything right out in front of them prefer Shinne, while those who enjoy a thrill prefer NGLA.  

« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:33:15 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 03:25:10 PM »
Here we go again ;D ;D ;D

I actually love this when it is discussed here.  I also enjoy the Shinnecock v PV discussion as well.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2008, 04:17:13 PM »
David:

To me both those courses are so good and even though their creation is only separated by a little over twenty years to me they just represent such distinctly different architectural styles in America. I think in a way Flynn's Shinnecock represents sort of the very best of what became the "generic" American style of architecture. NGLA on the other hand, is architecture of such an unusual type in the broad scheme of American architecture. I guess I would call it the best of the old world and the best of the beginning in the new world.

For my own game NGLA would always be more fun for me to play. For players levels above me maybe Shinnecock would be.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 09:57:58 PM »
Ah - a thread where I have enough experience to opine.

Left Coast Laid Back Dude Tom Huckaby and Back East "Checks and Balances" Journalist Matt Ward are the 2 best summaries of this ongoing debate.

I agree with both.

National would be a joy to play every day. And there is more pure golf architecture from tee box to flagstick on those links than you can ever imagine until you've hit both your best shots and your near-best shots and what-you-think-is your-best-shot several times on each hole (which took me a LOT of rounds to achieve).  And yes, the first 2 holes plus the 11th green ARE quirky (perhaps #6, too depending on your taste).  But unless you're just having an awful day and you're patient, National doesn't wear you out.  It IS fun.

Shinnecock is the better championship test by far (no quirkiness anywhere) and it is unquestionably #2 on my personal Best In The World List.  But even from the 6600 yard tee markers and only a "normal" breeze, Shinnecock will just beat you up.  For the good player, it's way harder than Pine Valley.  Once or twice a week?  Like Pine Valley, sign me up!  But every day?  I'd like to have the option (I don't), but I'd practice for a few hours at least as many days as I'd play if I was on the property whenever I wanted.

Interestingly, Shinnecock is the much better and easier course for the average woman given where the front markers are (intentionally) placed on each course.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2008, 10:39:25 PM »
I love both courses and find that NGLA is outmoded for modern tournament play.  NGLA is actually much harder for the average player.  Years ago it was called a great example of penal architecture--thanks to GCA and architectural fans it is now recognized for its strategic merit.  Shinny has always been seen as strategic at its best with major tournament play its birthright.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2008, 10:53:44 PM »
But what about what Tom Doak said about Shinne being both a course which challenges the best but is playable for the membership too???

Straight from the Confidential Guide, gentlemen...

I always liked what Gib wrote about NGLA calling it "gothic."

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2008, 11:23:45 PM »
I just came from playing both last week.  I don't think you can say one is better than the other. They are both distinct examples of ODG architecture.  Most here know I am not a fan of all the BS that usually comes with the ODG architects and the clairvoyants that regularly speak with these guys.  BUT the one thing that has always made me a fan of the ODG stuff is the routings and the individuality that they take on even on similar land.  Shinnecock and NGLA are one of the best examples of the same type of land with distinctly different routing styles.  At the time these types of course were built it was much more critical that the ODG route a proper course because the course had to be "found" whereas today much of the architecture that is "disdained" on this site is disliked subconsciously because of a routing that was created via earthmoving equipment and RE requirements.  Once these guys had the routings then the rest was simple....THEY ARE BOTH GREAT.....
Also while on LI I was able to play a few more of the ODG courses as well as some of the new stuff.  The land is just good....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 01:15:56 AM »
I agree that they are both truly great courses and think preference between them is a matter of personal taste.  I couldn't argue with anyone who picked one over the other.  But for me, this is an easy question to answer.  In my opinion, while NGLA is fascinating and an inspirational joy to play, Shinnecock is a true masterpiece.  I was quite simply blown away by its never ending strengths.  Every other course I have played has some weakness, however small, that you must overlook.  With Shinnecock, there are no weakneses.  It is head and shoulders above any other course I have played (that list does not include PV, Cypress or Augusta).  I will admit that I generally fall into the "championship test" camp.  I enjoy playing tough courses.  But difficulty alone does not make a great course.  I want the challenge to blend with beauty and architectural grace.  Shinnecock does that better than any place I have been so far.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 07:42:11 AM »
David,

It's interesting to note that Shinnecock has lengthened their course CONSIDERABLY in order to host U.S. Opens.

It's also interesting to note that Shinnecock has narrowed their fairways in order to host U.S. Opens.

Shinnecock is a spectacular golf course, but, why isn't the same criticism that's leveled at ANGC leveled at Shinnecock ?

Both NGLA and Shinnecock are spectacular golf courses with an interesting dynamic between them.

From a wish list, I wish that Shinnecock would return their fairways to the pre-U.S. Open widths.  And, I wish that NGLA would add length to certain holes, such as # 7.

TODAY, I think WIDTH is the defining element that weights my choice.

NGLA's width is a great asset for all levels of golfers.

From the back tees a decent amateur can have a sporting chance at NGLA.
I don't believe the same is true at Shinnecock.
From the back tees it will overwhelm most good amateurs, especially if the greens are at 11 or more.

Rough that was formerly fairway always seems more difficult to me as opposed to the off areas that aren't under the throw radius.

If forced to play either course, you'd still be in golfing paradise.

But, there's something special about NGLA, including the nuances that most don't see.

Jim Nugent

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 08:19:43 AM »

Shinnecock is a spectacular golf course, but, why isn't the same criticism that's leveled at ANGC leveled at Shinnecock ?


Maybe ANGC's trees are one reason.  Has Shinnie planted lots of trees, that dramatically narrowed and changed play on several holes? 

Also, did pro's burn up Shinnie in earlier tournaments, and did they change the course in response to that? 

Another thought: not that many people, even from this website, see Shinnie.  We see ANGC every year though.  It's always on the radar screen.  Perhaps if more of us had seen Shinnie change, there would be more criticism of it, too. 

Patrick, how would Shinnie play for the pro's, if they cut the rough and widened the fairways back to where they used to be?  Could they get rid of all the rough, or would that make the course to easy for the world's best players? 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 09:22:38 PM »

Shinnecock is a spectacular golf course, but, why isn't the same criticism that's leveled at ANGC leveled at Shinnecock ?


Maybe ANGC's trees are one reason. 


Which trees ?

On what holes ?
[/color]

Has Shinnie planted lots of trees, that dramatically narrowed and changed play on several holes?

No, they did that with the rough.

On what holes was play changed at ANGC ?

Have you played ANGC ?

If so, did any trees alter your play ?
[/color] 

Also, did pro's burn up Shinnie in earlier tournaments,

No, because the rough was six++ inches, the fairways narrowed, the tees lengthened, and the winds blew.
[/color]

and did they change the course in response to that? 


They changed the course as described to prevent low scores from occuring.
[/color]

Another thought: not that many people, even from this website, see Shinnie.  We see ANGC every year though.  It's always on the radar screen.  Perhaps if more of us had seen Shinnie change, there would be more criticism of it, too.

There's no doubt that the annual exposure brings ANGC front and center on the attention meter, but, that's irrelevant, the same process, the same forces are in play at both courses, yet one gets praised and the other bashed, for the same thing.
[/color] 

Patrick, how would Shinnie play for the pro's, if they cut the rough and widened the fairways back to where they used to be? 

It would be easier, just like ANGC would be if returned to its original width, which some have clamored for.
[/color]

Could they get rid of all the rough, or would that make the course to easy for the world's best players?

Prior to the first modern Open, Shinnecock's rough was the knee+ high rough that bordered wide fairways.

I seem to recall the fairways being about 54 acres under management at one point.  I believe that they got as low as about 27 and are now up in the 34 range.  TEPaul and Wayne Morrisson could probably provide the exact numbers, but, the fairways have been severely compromised, and, the club can afford to maintain the original acreage, which is always a factor.
[/color]
 

Gerry B

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 09:47:06 PM »
good question:

as mentioned by some - i think that NGLA is quirkier and has more fun factor but think shinnecock is the better course overall if asked - both are spectacular and have played them back to back on the same day numerous times in different order. prefer starting with NGLA  but the lunch factor and southsides can take its toll on the afternoon round at shinnecock.

like comparing raging bull to good fellas or taxi driver - all great but different

wsmorrison

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 06:25:33 AM »
I know I won't change Pat's mind regarding his beloved NGLA, but I would like to present a different point of view to consider.

While NGLA has much wider fairways (currently about double the fairway acreage of SHGC), which the average golfer appreciates immensely, the approach shots to a number of greens, especially the more manufactured ones) are very difficult for the average golfer due to the perched nature of the greens with abrupt falloffs, the hidden nature of the green sites, the steep slopes and significant internal contouring.  These features, especially given today's green speeds (perhaps double the intended speed) along with wind are the course's only defense with today's game.  Much of the fairway bunkering is not in play for elite players due to width, positioning and modern balls and implements.  They are more in play for average golfers.  A golfer of Pat's considerable abilities might lose sight of these factors.

If a golfer plays to the middle of the greens at SHGC, he/she has a reasonable chance at 2-putting.  This is not the case at NGLA due to the nature of its putting surfaces.  The NGLA greens are a lot more overt contouring than at SHGC.  Where SHGC becomes difficult for the best players is when the pins are tucked behind bunkers and/or near gradual falloffs.   Slight misses to these peripheral pins can result in very difficult recoveries due to the short grass areas around the greens and the green designs themselves.  The current green expansion brings these lost pin positions back into play thus influencing decision making back to the tee.

NGLA, to the credit of the membership and superintendent, have restored fairway width and green space to their original limits.  Well, one green is well beyond the original dimensions.  Once the greens at SHGC have been restored to their original dimensions, the course will have its full potential restored.  I think people who don't know the course very well may have some difficulty in grasping just how important this will be to how the course plays and how much strategies are returned.  The green expansion project is well under way and within a few years it will be complete.  This is more important a restoration phase than fairway expansion would be.  Given that NGLA has not held major tournaments in so many decades and SHGC has, it should not be surprising that fairway widths have been reduced at SHGC.  I think they should be returned because combined with green expansions, the more off line the tee shot, the more difficult the approach will be.  Wider fairways will allow tee shots and second shots on par 5s to stray more off the ideal line, especially when the golf course is properly firm and fast.  As for Pat determining what the club can and cannot afford to do, that is not his call nor does he have all the facts necessary to make such a statement.  NGLA has a lot more outings than SHGC and has a much bigger budget.  That is their choice.  That does not mean it must be SHGC's choice.

As far as width goes, I don't believe in width for width's sake, standardized width if you will.  I like a case by case approach depending upon the hole design and topography of each.  There is nothing at all wrong with a variety of width and even demanding, or testing the ability to deal with narrow fairways on some holes.  I agree with Pat that it shouldn't be the case on every hole.

As for Shinnecock's rough, I find the presentation of it ideal on a daily basis.  Pat's recollection of the rough at SHGC in the last Open is not accurate in my opinion.  It was perfect a bit more than a week preceding the 2004 Open.  However, it was cut shortly thereafter and did not achieve the level of difficulty the USGA wanted, so the greens (the USGA's last line of defense of par) were kept ultra firm and excessively fast.

Jim Nugent

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2008, 11:15:38 AM »


Which trees ?

On what holes ?
[/color]

Has Shinnie planted lots of trees, that dramatically narrowed and changed play on several holes?

No, they did that with the rough.

On what holes was play changed at ANGC ?

Have you played ANGC ?

If so, did any trees alter your play ?
[/color] 

I haven't played ANGC.  But let me quote someone who has, about how the trees alter play:

"The rough hasn't been, in my limited experience, the change with the most impact.

It's the planting of trees that's really changed play.

That's what's really narrowed the golf course, especially on holes like # 11, where the entire right side was converted from fairway and rough to a mini forest.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some trees removed as they mature.

The area between # 15 and # 17 is another area that's been affected.

With wide fairways, letting the rough grow a little wasn't a big deal.  It didn't impact play all that much.  Firstly, because with wide fairways you were rarely in the rough, and secondly, because when you were in the rough it wasn't that penal. 

But, the trees sure do affect play.  They've changed the flavor of the golf course.

It remains a great golf course, but, these changes, all a result of increased distances and straighter flight, have altered the personality and play of the golf course for the amateur."

That quote is what made me wonder if planting trees is a reason some people blast ANGC, but give Shinnecock a pass.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2008, 05:22:58 PM »
National Golf Links of America makes me smile.  Shinnecock  makes my heart soar.  Just being objective.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re: Shinnecock vs NGLA
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 05:28:14 PM »
Mike, that's interesting - for me it's the other way around.

But I also just thought of something:  outside of professionals, what do you think is the total number of people who can say they've played both?  It can't be more than a few thousand, can it?

We're two darn lucky guys, my friend.  And I know you know that.  But it just hit me like a ton of bricks as I re-read through this thread... and saw the great pic of some great guys at Shinnecock in another thread....

TH


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