Is torrey pines the worst course to host a US open in recent memory?

[Mark Arata]

I only ask because someone I played golf with today, decidedly not a GCA fan, just a casual golfer, made that statement, and I was sort of taken aback by it. I always thought Torrey Pines was fairly well known and liked by casual golfers......

Is it true? Of the top of my head, the only other course I can think of in recent memory that would be in competition would be Olympia Fields, and I only say that because of the status of the courses I can remember in the rotation (shinny, bethpage, pinehurst, oakmont, pebble, etc)...

What would be the worst course to host an open?

[Bob_Huntley]

I only ask because someone I played golf with today, decidedly not a GCA fan, just a casual golfer, made that statement, and I was sort of taken aback by it. I always thought Torrey Pines was fairly well known and liked by casual golfers......

Is it true? Of the top of my head, the only other course I can think of in recent memory that would be in competition would be Olympia Fields, and I only say that because of the status of the courses I can remember in the rotation (shinny, bethpage, pinehurst, oakmont, pebble, etc)...

What would be the worst course to host an open?

Mark,

How about Hazeltine?

Bob

[Phil McDade]

Bob:

You mean the cow pasture ruined by putting a golf course on it?

[Phil McDade]

Is Bellerive the runner-up?

[Chris Cupit]

Atlanta Athletic Club in 1976?  Way too immature AND not very good.  Helps to have 'ole Bob write a letter to the USGA doesn't it

The course has been re-done about 10 times since then and it is very difficult and much better.  Their Riverside course may be even better than the Highlands course---still.

[J_ Crisham]

Mark, I am always mystified when people shortchange Olympia Fields and the Open of 2003. The fact that the course surrendered low scores on the first two days and had little rough in areas, no prevailing wind, and soft greens is rarely mentioned. The course you saw on Sunday where players were leaking oil all over the course was much more representative of the true test of OFCC North. Architecturally it is a wonderful course with great use of the existing elevation changes. By the way I am not a member here but always enjoy my trips here.  Great test of golf-Jack

[Wayne Freeman]

Mark-   Torrey is generally liked by most of us in Calif., but certainly cannot come in any way close to measuring up to the other Open courses in the state-   Olympic,  Riviera, and Pebble are just so much better in every way. Given enough time and money the USGA can make any long enough course a worthy test.  It's not that Torrey is bad,  but it's reallly nothing special.

      Having played every U.S. Open course I have 2 nominations for my least favorite.  Keep in mind that the original Fresh Meadow and Englewood no longer exist and what's left of the original Buffalo open course is now a muni,  Grover Cleveland.

                        I would nominate Northwood in Dallas
        and Midlothian outside of Chicago.

    By the way,   my favorite Open courses,  all of which are heroic in nature are  (in no particular order).........   Shinnecock,  Merion,  Winged Foot,  Pebble, and Bethpage.

                                                   Wayne Freeman

[Mark Pearce]

Olympia Fields is the only course to have hosted a US Open that I have played.  I thought it was a very good course indeed.  If it is one of the worst US Open courses then the US Open has been played on great courses, almost without exception.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

That is the case indeed!

[BCrosby]

Atlanta Athletic Club's Riverside course may be even better than the Highlands course---still.

Chris - Couldn't agree more.  Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is Olympic really that good?

[Dan Kelly]

Just curious:

Has any of you Hazeltine-bashers played the golf course?

[Phil McDade]

Bob:

You mean the cow pasture ruined by putting a golf course on it?

Dan:

I was simply channeling my inner Dave Hill....

I hear it's improved since 1970. I do like #16. I've never played it.

[Dan Kelly]

Phil --

I knew you were channeling Dave Hill.

It just seems to me that bashing Hazeltine (channeling Dave Hill) has been "fashionable" among gca cognoscenti since 1970.

I've played the golf course only once since the Rees Jones amendments.

I like it still (even if it's not Sand Hills or Cypress Point), but I liked it better in its original configuration, with its wild doglegs and rolling greens.

Dave Hill was a whiner, looking for a little notoriety.

He got it.

Dan

[BCrosby]

Given the USGA's draconian set-up philosophy - the quality of the underlying course is less important than the prestige and/or location of venue at which the tournament is held.

If you are going to set fw's as narrow as a Carnaby Street ties, grow knee deep rough right up to the edge of greens, get things rock hard, I'm not sure how much the original architecture of the course matters.

Under such conditions, courses are largely fungible. For purposes of the USGA goals, a Bellerive works as well as an Atlanta AA, as well as a Winged Foot, etc.

I'm happy to hear that Mike Davis seems to be walking back some to the worst of the excesses, but still...

Bob

[Jeff Evagues]

Having played Torrey Pines and Bethpage I thought Torrey was much tougher.

[Mark Arata]

Mark, I am always mystified when people shortchange Olympia Fields and the Open of 2003. The fact that the course surrendered low scores on the first two days and had little rough in areas, no prevailing wind, and soft greens is rarely mentioned. The course you saw on Sunday where players were leaking oil all over the course was much more representative of the true test of OFCC North. Architecturally it is a wonderful course with great use of the existing elevation changes. By the way I am not a member here but always enjoy my trips here.  Great test of golf-Jack

Jack, I really didnt mean to critique Olympia Fields in that way, the only reason I mentioned it was to compare it to the other courses that I could rememeber off the top of my head having hosted the Open. I have never seen Olympia Fields other than on the broadcast, and I have heard from some people that have played it that it is very nice. I have played Torrey Pines, and never thought of it as a US Open type course, I played Bethpage Black in 1986 when it was 7 dollars to play it and it was in bad shape, and left the course that day thinking it was the best course I had ever seen up to that time.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

When I see people elevating Merion to the top tier of US Open sites I believe it's wise to wait until the '13 event to see if that is really the case. The Open has not been there since 1981 and in those amount of years plenty has happened. The '13 event will say plenty.

Regarding sites I have to say this ...

The USGA must go to California and be in the Chicago area for practical purposes. It's called $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


Jeff E:

Surley you jest with your last comment.

The overall scale, terrain and wider variety of holes clearly favors the Black. I don't doubt the Barry Bonds "steroid" push by those at Bethpage has turned me off a good bit but the Black takes a back seat to very, very few courses regarding overall challenge / demands. In my mind, Torrey / South is not one of them.

Dan K:

I've played Hazeltine twice since the Rees Jones work there -- I also never played the layout that his father created. In my mind, the "new" course that's there is a tough one when set-up in the USGA style but it's clearly lacking compelling architecture from my vantage point. There's no doubt a few holes of real note where wild scoring situations can happen (see the 16th as one example) but the move to go there is based upon the "midwest" locale factor and the fact that turnout for such events has been a big time success in generating $$$.

[Jeff Evagues]

Sorry, I've played the Black a number of times including the LI publinx and I've never bought into the hype. If I was head of the USGA the Open would be at Sebonack next year.

[TEPaul]

"Re: Is torrey pines the worst course to host a US open in recent memory?"


Oh, God no, not even close. The worst courses to host a US Open in recent memory in order of "worst" are:

Merion
Shinnecock
Pebble Beach
Pinehurst
Bethpage

All of them are just so old and old fashioned and basically out of date. Torrey Pines is far more modern and up to date.

[George Pazin]

Even if it is, it's not really a fair comparison. It's a little like asking which of the Victoria's Secret angels is the ugliest.

[Steve Hyden]

When I visited Muirfield years ago, the night before our scheduled round we were imbibing single malts and the very opinionated bartender said that the storied venue was "nothing but a long slog."  That description leaped to mind when I played Torrey last year.  Tough? Sure, and probably superbly conditioned at this point but dreary and devoid of charm despite the glorious setting - or maybe in part because of the setting - the golf doesn't measure up.

[Adam Clayman]

Gents:

When I see people elevating Merion to the top tier of US Open sites I believe it's wise to wait until the '13 event to see if that is really the case. The Open has not been there since 1981 and in those amount of years plenty has happened. The '13 event will say plenty.

Regarding sites I have to say this ...

The USGA must go to California and be in the Chicago area for practical purposes. It's called $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Matt, Assuming you are correct about both points, do you realize how truly sad statements they are?
 Length and score will determine whether it's a level of success you find acceptable, correct?
And,
The usga "is all about the money" may be the saddest reality.

[Chip Gaskins]

Is Olympic really that good?

Its a good track but being positioned on the side of that hill really drives me crazy.  never ever what seems to be a flat lie.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

The US Open is more than just a golf tournament -- there is ample politics at play withy any potential location that is ultimately chosen.

The USGA needs to be in California given its overall size and the amount of $$$ that is available since the PGA of America has made a big time splash in the midwest with a host of location such as Oakland Hills, Whistling Straits, Medinah, and Hazeltine National, to name just a few.

Torrey Pines is located in the 8th largest city in the USA -- it's also a very short drive to the #2 city in the nation. That means $$$$$ for the USGA in simply being there. The USGA cannot concede an avoidance of the SoCal market -- it's too big and lucrative. The addition of public courses as host sites has only served to give the USGA even MORE LEVERAGE in dealing with the old time clubs that were the stable of Opens for many, many years. I am not happy with this new reality because old line clubs such as Winged Foot and Shinnecock Hills have been a major plus as past host sites.

Adam, one further thing, under former president Walter Driver the USGA ventured big time into the sponsorship arena with Lexus and likely a few others. The drive (no pun intended) to expand vertical and horizontal dollars is alive and well in Far Hills.

As the old saying goes, "this is not your father's USGA any more."

Jeff E:

I can appreciate your opinion but you have not explained in any great detail how you see Torrey Pines / South being that much tougher than Bethpage Black. A bit more meat on the bone in regards to your thinking would be really helpful.