[Patrick_Mucci]

that the most challenging hole locations are at the very front and very back of the green and that flanking hole locations don't cause golfers as much challenge/difficulty ?

[Dean Stokes]

Patrick, I 've got to go with the front pin as my least favorite and hardest to get to.
It is often the narrowest part of the green. There is usually somewhat of a drop off (false front) that stops anything pitching short of the green getting up there.

Then you've got the miss left or right - quite often bunkers that leave a tough shot to a small area.

The play is normally three or four paces beyong the pin so a perfect shot will leave a 12-20 ft putt often back downhill.

[henrye]

Sounds like an absurd generalization.  Depends on contours, hazards and approach angles.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I think it's pretty safe to say that anything you think is safe to say is not safe to say. I think that's pretty safe to say to the tune of about 98%. Would you say 98% could be called "safe-to-say?"   

[Dean Paolucci]

I also agree!  In many cases the most difficult pins ARE front.  The average golfer does not have the aerial game to pin point a shot in a very precise landing zone.  Middle or back pins offer the option of running the ball in on the green or hitting to the hole.  Front pins tend to get protection from approaches which are either soft, firm, mild to sever inclines, elevation, bunkering, water, etc.  Back pins have either bunkers, collection areas, or in the worsed case water or OB.  Just my own experience.

[TEPaul]

Dean, honestly, you know the guy as well or better than I do----have you ever met anyone who talks more nonsense than Patrick?   

One time coming back from the Midwest he was sitting in first class and he actually conned this pretty hot first class stewardess into coming into the back of the plane with the regular seats where all us poor people ride and which were completely filled and somehow finding me and asking me if I'm Bill Coore.

When I heard that I really did go: "What the hell is going on here?" If she hadn't finally admitted it it would've taken me at least five minutes to figure out it had to have something to do with the nonsense-talking Patrick.

And if that wasn't bad enough, I think it was in something like the Chicago airport where he actually pick-pocketed my wallet and threw it on the floor without me knowing it and then waited until I had to use it to even give me hint about what he did. It was either that or he gave it to some strange lady and conned her into giving it back to me about fifteen minutes after I thought I lost it.

And Patrick, aren't you the one who used to carry that big knife that was something like a machete in your carry-on luggage? I don't know how in the world you talked your way out of that one but I want you to know I was thinking if I had to bail you out of jail on that kind of nonsense I was definitely not charging you any less than 138% interest, and that's per day, not per year!

[Dean Paolucci]

Tom - The one thing I will agree with is that Patrick goes to exquisite lengths to execute his practical jokes.  No one but no one spends more time to concoct and plan his gags than PMM.  I am sure that we could fill pages of unknowing victims (like you) testimony.

DEAN

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

She really was really gorgeous with a great figure and personality to match.
And guess what, she lives in New Jersey and loves dogs, so we have a lot in common.  To this day she still believes that I'm your custodian/guardian.
She was really touched when I told her that I visited you twice a month and had signed you out of HappyDale Farms to take you on a golfing trip with some friends of mine.  I told her that I promised your Mother that I'd take good care of you, but that I became really concerned when you got lost in the Denver Airport.  What I didn't tell her was that I had been trying to get you a one way ticket to Juneau, Alaska from the get-go.

She was/is special.

Nor did I tell her how I paid a ranch hand at Sand Hills to take you in the back of his white pickup truck under the guise of taking you on a tour of the Constellation routing.  Little did you know that if he hadn't run out of gas his real destination was Concordia, Kansas, a couple of hundred miles away.

You're also forgetting to tell everyone how I managed to get you upgraded to First Class on the way out when I told the people at the counter that you were my ward and that we couldn't be apart as you suffered from seperation anxiety, and then how you lost your ticket and they wouldn't let you on the plane.  Fortunately,  a woman who doesn't lurk on GCA.com found it and turned it in at our gate or you'd still be wandering around the airport telling everyone that you were Bill Coore.

There are certain aspects of that trip that are best left undiscussed.

One of them ISN'T your bright idea of leaving all the lights on and all the windows and the door to your room open when you left for dinner.

Ran Morrissett, your unfortunate roommate didn't smoke cigarettes, so when you entered the room after dinner he was bitten by about a 1,000 bugs, while you were happily puffing away and killing every bug within 3 feet from your Camel cigarette.

I've refrained from telling everyone how I had to order dinner for you every night, and how you insisted that the wine Bob Huntley ordered for the table was no good, because you claimed the year he ordered was the year of the great Athletes Foot outbreak amongst the peasants in France, Italy and California.

I'll never forget how embarrassing it was at dinner the first night when the fellows at the next table, who were from Pennsylvania, recognized me and asked to be introduced to our table.  I went around the table introducing everyone, and where were you ?  Hiding under the table, saying, "you can't find me, you can't find me."

And then, when we met and spent the evening with Dick Youngscap and you kept calling him Mike Keiser, that was really embarrasing.

But, the five year moratorium is almost up and I'm ready to travel with you again.  I am however, tripling my custodian/trustee fees and booking my reservations under an alias.

How do the names David Moriarty and Tom MacWood sound to you ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sounds like an absurd generalization.

If you can't comprehend the question and/or don't possess course management skills I could see how you would feel that way.[/color]

Depends on contours, hazards and approach angles.

What's the angular variation from a 34 yard wide fairway in approaching a front pin from 200 yards ?  180 ?  160 ?

As a percentage,
How many greens have contouring in the front of the green ?
How many greens have hazards directly in front of them ?[/color]

[henrye]

Sounds like an absurd generalization.

If you can't comprehend the question and/or don't possess course management skills I could see how you would feel that way.[/color]

Depends on contours, hazards and approach angles.

What's the angular variation from a 34 yard wide fairway in approaching a front pin from 200 yards ?  180 ?  160 ?

As a percentage,
How many greens have contouring in the front of the green ?
How many greens have hazards directly in front of them ?[/color]

Just because you don't like my response doesn't mean that I don't understand the question.  Perhaps you would prefer this answer.  "It is safe to say that the most challenging pin positions are at the very front  or back".  Hazards, contours and angles of approach are really not that material.

Sorry, seriously though, surely you understand the angle of approach is not the angle to the pin, but rather the angle into the safe/optimum portion of the green.  Also, basic math would suggest the angles increase as you get closer.  Try 160, 140, 120.  Also, you'll find the angular variation to the safe sector of a green regardless of the fairway width will always be greater than the angular variation of the tee shot to that part of the fairway.  The only exceptions to that would be if the tee shot is shorter than the approach shot or the teeing area is tighter than the green.

Lastly, on your percentage question, I was thinking of green contouring, not contouring in front of the green.  As to how many greens have hazards directly in front of them - 7.6%.

[Dean Stokes]

TEPaul,

She really was really gorgeous with a great figure and personality to match.
And guess what, she lives in New Jersey and loves dogs, so we have a lot in common.  To this day she still believes that I'm your custodian/guardian.
She was really touched when I told her that I visited you twice a month and had signed you out of HappyDale Farms to take you on a golfing trip with some friends of mine.  I told her that I promised your Mother that I'd take good care of you, but that I became really concerned when you got lost in the Denver Airport.  What I didn't tell her was that I had been trying to get you a one way ticket to Juneau, Alaska from the get-go.

She was/is special.

Nor did I tell her how I paid a ranch hand at Sand Hills to take you in the back of his white pickup truck under the guise of taking you on a tour of the Constellation routing.  Little did you know that if he hadn't run out of gas his real destination was Concordia, Kansas, a couple of hundred miles away.

You're also forgetting to tell everyone how I managed to get you upgraded to First Class on the way out when I told the people at the counter that you were my ward and that we couldn't be apart as you suffered from seperation anxiety, and then how you lost your ticket and they wouldn't let you on the plane.  Fortunately,  a woman who doesn't lurk on GCA.com found it and turned it in at our gate or you'd still be wandering around the airport telling everyone that you were Bill Coore.

There are certain aspects of that trip that are best left undiscussed.

One of them ISN'T your bright idea of leaving all the lights on and all the windows and the door to your room open when you left for dinner.

Ran Morrissett, your unfortunate roommate didn't smoke cigarettes, so when you entered the room after dinner he was bitten by about a 1,000 bugs, while you were happily puffing away and killing every bug within 3 feet from your Camel cigarette.

I've refrained from telling everyone how I had to order dinner for you every night, and how you insisted that the wine Bob Huntley ordered for the table was no good, because you claimed the year he ordered was the year of the great Athletes Foot outbreak amongst the peasants in France, Italy and California.

I'll never forget how embarrassing it was at dinner the first night when the fellows at the next table, who were from Pennsylvania, recognized me and asked to be introduced to our table.  I went around the table introducing everyone, and where were you ?  Hiding under the table, saying, "you can't find me, you can't find me."

And then, when we met and spent the evening with Dick Youngscap and you kept calling him Mike Keiser, that was really embarrasing.

But, the five year moratorium is almost up and I'm ready to travel with you again.  I am however, tripling my custodian/trustee fees and booking my reservations under an alias.

How do the names David Moriarty and Tom MacWood sound to you ?

One of the best posts I've read in my 6 months on this site. I know neither of you in person yet laughed at each of the situations. Brilliant. TE - say it ain't so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just because you don't like my response doesn't mean that I don't understand the question. 

My like or dislike of your response had nothing to do with my reply.[/color]

Perhaps you would prefer this answer.  "It is safe to say that the most challenging pin positions are at the very front  or back".  Hazards, contours and angles of approach are really not that material.

When viewed in a global context, individual hole features are unimportant.
For every green with a hazard left, there's a green with a hazard right.
However, fronting hazards aren't nearly as prevalent as flanking hazards.
[/color]

Sorry, seriously though, surely you understand the angle of approach is not the angle to the pin, but rather the angle into the safe/optimum portion of the green. 

In that case, the differential between the angles is even smaller, making your opening statement seriously flawed.[/color]

Also, basic math would suggest the angles increase as you get closer.  Try 160, 140, 120. 

I was well aware of that when I posted my yardages.
However, as you get closer, the trajectory of the shot gets higher and negates the impact on angles of attack.[/color]

Also, you'll find the angular variation to the safe sector of a green regardless of the fairway width will always be greater than the angular variation of the tee shot to that part of the fairway.  The only exceptions to that would be if the tee shot is shorter than the approach shot or the teeing area is tighter than the green.

There is no angular variation to a specific part of the fairway, irrespective of the relative lengths of the approach and tee shot.

Can you cite any par 4 or par 5 holes where the DZ is tighter than the green ?[/color]

Lastly, on your percentage question, I was thinking of green contouring, not contouring in front of the green. 

As to how many greens have hazards directly in front of them - 7.6%.


Could you cite your source for arriving at that percentile, or is it just another absurd, general response ?

Lastly, what's your handicap ?
I know it doesn't seem important, but, it is germane to contexting your answers.

Thanks[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean Stokes,

TEPaul is an unlimited resource when it comes to relaying unique real life experiences with him.

I had a great Labrador retriever, I mean, he was really special and I trained him to be about the best bird dog there ever was.

I told TEPaul about him and invited him on a hunting trip with me.

We were sitting in the blind at about 6:00 am when a flock of geese flew by.  I was surprised that they flew in so close because our blind looked like an industrial smokestack as TEPaul was going through a pack an hour.

Well, we popped up and TEPaul, the ex-Marine and marksman began shooting at the other blinds, until I told him to go after the birds. 
I fired once and hit a goose which fell into the nearby lake. 
I then commanded my retriever, "Mercury", to fetch the bird. 
The dog immediately ran out ON the water, picked the bird up gently in his mouth, and then ran back ON the water, to our blind and dropped the bird at my feet.

TEPaul looked at me and said, " I thought you said that your dog was a special retriever, the best you had ever seen".  I said, "he is".  To which TEPaul replied, "special hell, that dog can't even swim".

Keep this story in mind when TEPaul interprets golf course architecture.
You'll come to find out that he has a unique perspective.

[henrye]

Just because you don't like my response doesn't mean that I don't understand the question. 

My like or dislike of your response had nothing to do with my reply.[/color]

Perhaps you would prefer this answer.  "It is safe to say that the most challenging pin positions are at the very front  or back".  Hazards, contours and angles of approach are really not that material.

When viewed in a global context, individual hole features are unimportant.
For every green with a hazard left, there's a green with a hazard right.
However, fronting hazards aren't nearly as prevalent as flanking hazards.
[/color]

....hmm.  So according to your hypothesis, in general and in the global context, hole locations are more challenging when placed further from hazards.

Sorry, seriously though, surely you understand the angle of approach is not the angle to the pin, but rather the angle into the safe/optimum portion of the green. 

In that case, the differential between the angles is even smaller, making your opening statement seriously flawed.[/color]

Also, basic math would suggest the angles increase as you get closer.  Try 160, 140, 120. 

I was well aware of that when I posted my yardages.
However, as you get closer, the trajectory of the shot gets higher and negates the impact on angles of attack.[/color]

It may reduce it, but it doesn't eliminate it.

Also, you'll find the angular variation to the safe sector of a green regardless of the fairway width will always be greater than the angular variation of the tee shot to that part of the fairway.  The only exceptions to that would be if the tee shot is shorter than the approach shot or the teeing area is tighter than the green.

There is no angular variation to a specific part of the fairway, irrespective of the relative lengths of the approach and tee shot.

Can you cite any par 4 or par 5 holes where the DZ is tighter than the green ?[/color]

Sorry.  You're right.  I didn't mean to say a specific part in the fairway; I meant to the fairway in general.  Your example cited a 34 yard fairway.

Lastly, on your percentage question, I was thinking of green contouring, not contouring in front of the green. 

As to how many greens have hazards directly in front of them - 7.6%.


Could you cite your source for arriving at that percentile, or is it just another absurd, general response ?

Lastly, what's your handicap ?
I know it doesn't seem important, but, it is germane to contexting your answers.

Thanks[/color]

Pat.  Of course it's just an absurd, general response, but please look at your question.  Did you actually expect an accurate answer?

As for my handicap, it is only germane if it biases my response.  Because you wouldn't know whether or not it does, it may bias your interpretation of my replies.

[TEPaul]

TEPaul,
She really was really gorgeous with a great figure and personality to match.
And guess what, she lives in New Jersey and loves dogs, so we have a lot in common.  To this day she still believes that I'm your custodian/guardian.
She was really touched when I told her that I visited you twice a month and had signed you out of HappyDale Farms to take you on a golfing trip with some friends of mine.  I told her that I promised your Mother that I'd take good care of you, but that I became really concerned when you got lost in the Denver Airport.  What I didn't tell her was that I had been trying to get you a one way ticket to Juneau, Alaska from the get-go."


Pat:

You're probably right, I do need your help. I thought we were in the Chicago airport but it was the Denver airport, I guess. When we hit the Chicago airport we were probably like 35,000 feet above it, right? I'm glad you didn't pick-pocket my wallet and throw it in the Chicago airport from 35k or I might not have ever found it.

[TEPaul]

Hey Pat:

Apropos of your goose and smoke stack story, there are two things I got to tell you. The first one has nothing to do with geese or hunting dogs but the other one does.

The first one is-----guess who called me the other day? Ben Crenshaw! I know it was him because he's pretty hard to miss even on the phone but he kept claiming he was Pat Mucci. Can you tell me what that was about?




The second story is from some years ago and told to me by this guy who's name of course I can't remember but he was a damn sophisticated Southerner who was really into hunting and he arranged to have these New York corporate bigwigs who thought they were great hunters too come down to the Carolinas and he got some of his "good-ole-Boy" backwoods hunter types to take them out hunting with the dogs.

So they're all at this local airport in the Carolinas and here comes the bigwig New York corporate types in on their Gulfstream. They're not ten yards off the stairs to the plane all decked out in the finest hunting gear one can buy in New York City when one of them goes: "Shit, we forgot our champion hunting dog!"

The "good-ol-boys" say: "Don't worry about it, we got a lot of good huntin' dogs for you-awl."

But the one New York corporate bigwig won't hear it and he actually tells the pilot to close it up and high-tail in back to New York and pick up his champion huntin' dog. So the plane is outta there in about two minutes and a couple of hours later it's back.

The "Good-ol-Boys" have now asked the corporate bigwig what kind of champion huntin' dog is this anyway and how much did he cost?

The New York Bigwig said he got a great deal on him because he's still basically a puppy and he only cost $17,000.

The "Good-ol-Boys" all damn near choked on their chewin' tabaccee and said:

"Mister, he cost ya what now? There ain't no huntin dog in the Universe worth near that kinda scratch!"

But here comes the Gulfstream back from New York and it taxies to a quick stop and the stairs fly open and about 3 seconds later out leaps this "champion" huntin' dog puppy---he hits about the middle of the stairs on the fly and summersaults head over heels onto the tar-mac, gets up and scrambles to get his footing and lands on his back. Then he rights himself and sits on his haunches for about a minute and proceeds to survey the general scene.

He spots this pig teethered up about 100 yards away next to a hangar and he gets up and lopes over to this teethered pig and proceed to mount her and tries to nail her!

With this the "Good-ol-Boys" are on the ground laughing there asses off and one of them says:

"Mister, that piece of shit champion huntin' dog puppy of yours ain't worth 17 cents and we sure ain't gonna be buying for that price either."

Absolute true story, Patrick!

[Phil Benedict]

For most golfers, I think back pins are the hardest to get close to.  First, golfers tend to underclub, so they are more likely to get close to a front pin.  Second, on most holes hitting over the green with a back pin is death because greens are more likely to slope from back to front, particularly in classic architecture, so a thinking golfer will tend to be short to a back pin.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil, et. al.,

Would you then say that dialing in distance variation is more important to the golfer than dialing in the lateral variation ?

And, does playing to the center of the green negate the difficulty of perimeter hole locations ?

Stated another way, can course management thwart architectural intent ?

[Phil Benedict]

Phil, et. al.,

Would you then say that dialing in distance variation is more important to the golfer than dialing in the lateral variation ?

And, does playing to the center of the green negate the difficulty of perimeter hole locations ?

Not really, because if you play to the center of the green when the pin is tucked you will have a long putt, making a one-putt unlikely and a three-putt possible.

Stated another way, can course management thwart architectural intent ?

Again, I don't see why.  Conservative course managers will have long putts on holes with tucked pins where more aggressive players will either have a shorter putt or be short-sided.  I don't think architects intend for everyone to take the bait of a sucker hole location, just some.  The only circumstance in which architectural intent may be thwarted is if everyone takes the safe route (which probably happens in high level golf but less so with recreational golf).

Sorry I don't know how to use colors to clearly delineate my answers from Pat's questions.

Phil

[Dean Stokes]

For most golfers, I think back pins are the hardest to get close to.  First, golfers tend to underclub, so they are more likely to get close to a front pin.  Second, on most holes hitting over the green with a back pin is death because greens are more likely to slope from back to front, particularly in classic architecture, so a thinking golfer will tend to be short to a back pin.

"first, golfers tend to underclub, so they are more likely to get close to a front pin".

Phil, Are you saying that even though the pin is in the front they would be playing a back pin yardage?
Surely if they have the correct yardage to a front pin and underclub, they will come up way short of the green and leave a tough chip. No.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

On a green with a 28 yard diameter, a ball hit to the center will have a 27 foot putt at most, so where's the long putt you reference coming from ?

Unless you consider a 27 foot putt to be a long putt.

As to taking the safe route, that usually results in disadvantageous angles of attack and bringing more hazards into play.

[Phil Benedict]

Dean,

I understand your point but I think the vast majority of approach shots at the recreational level land short of the middle of the green, so statistically speaking it is likely that more shots end up close to front pins.

Patrick,

I think your response is contrived but a 27-footer may not be a long putt, but it is hardly "makeable."

But let's consider a real world example we are all familiar with: the front right pin on the 12th at Augusta.  (I admit this example is flawed in that the green has no depth and the thread deals with depth, but so be it.)  The safe play is to aim 25-feet left of the flag, basically to the middle of the green.  Does this case of course management defeat the architect's intent?  I don't think so, because there are always a few players who hit for the flag, some of whom are rewarded, some of whom are punished.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean,

I understand your point but I think the vast majority of approach shots at the recreational level land short of the middle of the green, so statistically speaking it is likely that more shots end up close to front pins.

Patrick,

I think your response is contrived but a 27-footer may not be a long putt, but it is hardly "makeable."

It's not intended to be a makable putt, it's a defensive strategy that minimizes the potential for disaster, while allowing for the successful completion of the hole in par[/color]

But let's consider a real world example we are all familiar with: the front right pin on the 12th at Augusta.  (I admit this example is flawed in that the green has no depth and the thread deals with depth, but so be it.) 


FLAWED ?
That's got to be one of the biggest under statements of the year.
It's an absurd example.
The depth of the green is THE primary focus of the shot, not the lateral margins.[/color]

The safe play is to aim 25-feet left of the flag, basically to the middle of the green. 

That is NOT the safe play.  The safe play is to go to the right center of the green.[/color]

Does this case of course management defeat the architect's intent? 

I don't agree that the safe play is to aim 25 feet left of the flag.
That brings you to the narrowest part of the green, with bunkers front and back coming into play.

You don't want to be in the rear bunker playing back toward the water. 

Your margins for error are at their lowest with the shot you propose.

I believe that the safest shot is at the pin, long or long and right
of the pin.  What MUST be considered is the longer carry to the right side of the green, so additional club should be taken.  Going long or right of the green isn't a bad play compared to what you suggest.[/color]

I don't think so, because there are always a few players who hit for the flag, some of whom are rewarded, some of whom are punished.

I disagree with your conclusion.
As I said above, your example is flawed, as is the premise and conclusion.[/color]

[Dean Paolucci]

Dean,

I understand your point but I think the vast majority of approach shots at the recreational level land short of the middle of the green, so statistically speaking it is likely that more shots end up close to front pins.

Phil - I respectfully submit (and appreciate your measured response) that the vast majority of approach shots at the recreational level land short period not short of the middle.  Most rec players under club dramatically.  Short on a front pin would leave the recreational player with a very tricky 10 - 15 yard chip shot from a tight lie or a bunker shot.  If they don't chunk the shot the second outcome would be a bladed shot over the green.  The more skilled player may get the ball in the area of the flag stick however experience indicates a low percentage of players will get it close.  The second senario is the player who chooses to take the extra club.  This choice leaves the rec player so relaxed he or she usually nukes it over the green or decellerates and chunks it.  If your premise was accurate the recreational player would have to decide to exercise elevated course management reasoning and play the shot to the middle of the green and then under execute on the club management level.   I still contend that the front pin is infinately more difficult than any other position on the green.
DEAN

[Brad Klein]

Pat,

since I can't seem to IM you through GCA, can you contact me, please at igolfbadly@aol.com? Thanks.
Brad

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