[Dean Stokes]

The system is what it is and will probably not change. The facts will not change however. If you run an event, make it strokeplay, with 100 players given USGA handicaps, I would hazard a good guess having worked at several, that a high percentage will not play near their handicap.

Surely there is a flaw in the system. That is all I wish to say. It goes back to the guy in the pub telling you he's a 5 handicap to impress the masses. I've heard it too many times. We go out and have a game and the guy shoots between 85-90. Is he really a 5? How did the system let him get there?

And does it really matter in the long run if someone has an 'ego' handicap as long as he's not in my group for the 3 best balls out of four to count and he doesn't use his vastly false handicap to gain entry into events that have handicap restrictions - thereby wasting the spot that a legit player could take.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The answer to this lunacy...calculate handicaps from tournament scores, only.

Nope. That is the system we have here in Germany and it makes for even more vanity handicaps. The reason is that once you have reached a satisfactory handicap number, you can simply stop playing tournaments and your handicap will be frozen in place forever. We have numerous 80 year old guys with "well-seasoned" single digit handicaps, who cannot break 100 anymore.

In my case, I have played more than 50 rounds last year and none of them counted towards my handicap - how is that for lunacy?

Ulrich

[Doug Siebert]

Stuff happens.  A few years ago I was playing to a 7 handicap in a tournament.  Historically, I've had my moments, but have never consistently been a great ball striker or a long hitter.  But I have at times had a pretty good short game.  That day, I had one of the most miserable rounds ever.  I had ONE hole on which I had to take TWO unplayable lies and the ensuing penalty strokes.  I hit two balls OB and three into water hazards.  I had a sh&^%k.  It was a long slog.  But by far the worst part of the day came while sitting on the patio after the round as two guys who didn't know me saw my score (97) and my handicap.  "Who the hell is this guy?  Ninety-seven with a seven handicap?  Talk about vanity handicaps! Jesus!"  I downed my drink and slunk from the scene.  Stuff happens.

Well it wasn't in a tournament, but a few years ago I shot a 78 in a round that included two OB, one lost ball, one water hazard (stroke and distance) one lateral hazard and one unplayable.  Now I certainly get more penalty strokes than the average single digit handicap because I can be kinda wild off the tee and somewhat inconsistent in my results shot to shot due to less practice per decade than many GCAers probably do in an average week, but losing 10 strokes to penalties is crazy even for me.  Point being, you can have all that weird stuff happening and contributing to a bad day, like you did, or you can have it happening on a day where you otherwise played extremely well -- I think I was about 5 handicap then, so that 78 including those 10 strokes lost to penalties was still beating my handicap!

[Andrew Summerell]

The answer to this lunacy...calculate handicaps from tournament scores, only.

Nope. That is the system we have here in Germany and it makes for even more vanity handicaps. The reason is that once you have reached a satisfactory handicap number, you can simply stop playing tournaments and your handicap will be frozen in place forever. We have numerous 80 year old guys with "well-seasoned" single digit handicaps, who cannot break 100 anymore.

In my case, I have played more than 50 rounds last year and none of them counted towards my handicap - how is that for lunacy?

Ulrich

This can't happen in Australia, because if you don't play enough competitions per year, you lose your handicap.

[Jamey Bryan]

I've held off from posting here, but cannot any longer.

We have an established system in place for handicapping play.  The system may be flawed, and is certainly not above criticism, but it is in place and works.

Playing a match, money or otherwise, using a "handicap" which is knowingly higher than that which would be available using the USGA system is CHEATING.  It is such flagrant cheating that it is one of the very few fouls which may cause disqualification following the close of a competition.

Matt, I suggest that, unless you make your opponents aware of your "questionable" method of handicapping, you are simply claiming a 3-4 shot unearned advantage every time you tee off.  With that edge, I'd offer to play anyone in a "money match" too.

Jamey

[Doug Siebert]

There are too many people here who seem to think the USGA handicap system is something that it is not.  Anyone who thinks a 10 handicap should be shooting 82 on a par 72 course either plays some incredibly easy par 72 courses that have a rating of about 68, or does really know or understand what the USGA system measures.  The articles at Dean Knuth's site (linked already posted in this thread) will explain things far better than anyone here can for those who are interested to learn how it really works.

The short version is that under the USGA system the "expected" score is that you shoot 3 strokes above your handicap.  That's the COURSE handicap, not your GHIN index, and based on your adjusted score not your raw score.

So if you are a 5.1 handicap playing a tough course that's 76.0/145 you have a course handicap of 7 so 76.0 + 7 + 3 = you are expected to shoot an adjusted score of 86.  If you have two triples and one quad and shoot 90 you are shooting right in line with what you are expected to with that handicap, though it would appear that a lot of people reading this thread would think that score was an indication of a vanity handicap.

That's not even getting into courses that fit someone's game well or not at all, which the handicap system doesn't really take into account.  Since I'm often a wild driver of the ball, if my home course featured very narrow fairways with lots of OB and other terrors awaiting a misdirected drive, I would surely raise my handicap a few strokes and end up with a handicap that "travels well" as they say, and some might think me a sandbagger.  On the other hand if I played a long wide open course where you can hit it anywhere and it doesn't matter too much I'd reduce my handicap by several strokes and be unable to play to it anywhere and I'd be labelled as carrying a vanity handicap.

I'm not saying vanity handicaps don't exist, there are probably as many of them as there are sandbaggers, but the reasons for it are simple in that people either outright cheat by writing down lower scores or only posting lower scores, and/or don't play by the rules for stuff like lost balls, "winter rules", "gimmes" and so on.

[Dean Stokes]

I've held off from posting here, but cannot any longer.

We have an established system in place for handicapping play.  The system may be flawed, and is certainly not above criticism, but it is in place and works.

Playing a match, money or otherwise, using a "handicap" which is knowingly higher than that which would be available using the USGA system is CHEATING.  It is such flagrant cheating that it is one of the very few fouls which may cause disqualification following the close of a competition.

Matt, I suggest that, unless you make your opponents aware of your "questionable" method of handicapping, you are simply claiming a 3-4 shot unearned advantage every time you tee off.  With that edge, I'd offer to play anyone in a "money match" too.

Jamey

And the main point of this thread is to establish that it is in  place and it does not work!!! That is why so many players have handicaps that are completely false - usually to the advantage of the player who has a true handicap.
The whole point of Mr Sides thread was to find out why so many golfers have handicaps that they cannot play to - Matt is playing with his own group of players who understand the system is a mess. His handicap on the computer is 6.8 or whatever and he knows that he is nowhere near that. He is a 10 so in his own games, that is what he plays off. I do not call that cheating unless it is a real tournament.

I'll go back to my caveman theory on handicaps for you Jamey. You tell me you are a 10. I expect you to shoot around 82 regularly. If you keep scoring in the 90's I 'm going to tell you you are a 20. I don't care what your potential is over 20 rounds averaged out mius 96% add this take that etc etc. What can you score with a card in your hand? That is your handicap.

[Dean Stokes]

There are too many people here who seem to think the USGA handicap system is something that it is not.  Anyone who thinks a 10 handicap should be shooting 82 on a par 72 course either plays some incredibly easy par 72 courses that have a rating of about 68, or does really know or understand what the USGA system measures.  The articles at Dean Knuth's site (linked already posted in this thread) will explain things far better than anyone here can for those who are interested to learn how it really works.

The short version is that under the USGA system the "expected" score is that you shoot 3 strokes above your handicap.  That's the COURSE handicap, not your GHIN index, and based on your adjusted score not your raw score.

So if you are a 5.1 handicap playing a tough course that's 76.0/145 you have a course handicap of 7 so 76.0 + 7 + 3 = you are expected to shoot an adjusted score of 86.  If you have two triples and one quad and shoot 90 you are shooting right in line with what you are expected to with that handicap, though it would appear that a lot of people reading this thread would think that score was an indication of a vanity handicap.

That's not even getting into courses that fit someone's game well or not at all, which the handicap system doesn't really take into account.  Since I'm often a wild driver of the ball, if my home course featured very narrow fairways with lots of OB and other terrors awaiting a misdirected drive, I would surely raise my handicap a few strokes and end up with a handicap that "travels well" as they say, and some might think me a sandbagger.  On the other hand if I played a long wide open course where you can hit it anywhere and it doesn't matter too much I'd reduce my handicap by several strokes and be unable to play to it anywhere and I'd be labelled as carrying a vanity handicap.

I'm not saying vanity handicaps don't exist, there are probably as many of them as there are sandbaggers, but the reasons for it are simple in that people either outright cheat by writing down lower scores or only posting lower scores, and/or don't play by the rules for stuff like lost balls, "winter rules", "gimmes" and so on.

Doug, you are trying to tell me that because that the course is a little tough a 5 handicap should shoot 90. Now I really know something is wrong. Let me play that 5.1 index all day long. I could quit working.

[Matt Varney]

Dean,

Thanks for your comments you get it and you understand my position on my handicap.  Call it caveman handicap theory but, it works time and time again when I play with my friends.

[Doug Siebert]

Matt,

When you are playing with friends that's one thing, but you said "when I play in events I tell guys I'm a 10 handicap".  That's outright sandbagging since it sounds like you know your GHIN index would be much lower but you just don't like the way its figured.  I sure hope you haven't ever won and accepted prizes based on that fictitious handicap!

This is a great example of why I never play for anything more than a token sum with someone I don't know, unless they are vouched for by someone I really trust.  It doesn't have to be actually lying about a handicap or going to the extremes of deliberately missing putts to post higher scores, there are a lot of ways to sandbag.

If someone asks your handicap, why don't you just say "I don't post my scores so I don't have an official handicap, but I usually shoot about an 82".  If someone mistakenly infers that you are about a 10 handicap from that, then its their fault and you haven't done anything wrong.  But don't get pissed if they decide you are a 5, because if your 82s are at a moderately tough track, that's probably about what you are, according to GHIN, whether you like or agree with it, or not.

Its no surprise you find you "pound" the guys in your office when you play them based on their handicap, if they are a GHIN 10 and you are a Varney 10 they are essentially giving you five shots.  You might find the competition you seek if you got yourself an official handicap and played guys (who play by the rules, ball down, etc. as you do) who have a similar handicap.  Or if the guys at your office are all GHIN 10s, by giving them the 5 shots they deserve!

I have to say, given how little knowledge of how GHIN really works that even the GCAers in this thread exhibit, whom I would expect to know this stuff pretty well, that one could probably make a lot of money perhaps not quite honestly but definitely not dishonestly.  Simply by NOT carrying a real handicap yet being scrupulously honest when asked "what's your handicap" and replying with the exact raw totals of your last 10 scores.  I'll bet a lot of people would average them, subtract from 72, and decide that's your handicap.  A guy could really clean up that way, and no one could fault him for cheating, at least not by the letter of the law...

[Mark Pearce]

To say your handicap is 10 when you know that it is not (whether or not in your world you think it should be calculated differently) is cheating.  Cheating has no place in golf.

[Rick Sides]

I think the importance of a handicap is to be honest and keep accurate scoring. I know the handicap system is hard to understand and is not perfect.  I think the point I was trying to convey when starting the post was  to get an answer why most men lie about their handicap. Some lie to cheat for money, but most lie to look themselves look better.  An example I can think of was when I recently played in Arizona with my brother in law, a man was paired with us.  He said he was a 6 handicap. Well by the second hole when he was slicing balls off the course and into houses and blasting irons into the desert, it was clear that he was not having a bad day, the fact was there was no way in hell he was a 6 handicap!  This is not a rarity. I can't begin to tell you the number of times a person claims to be a single digit handicapper and their swing and game does not match the handicap they claim.

[Rich Goodale]

Mark is completely right

If you do not follow the rules for handicaps (regardless of which system), you do not have a legitimate handicap.  Anybody playing with you or against you with anything significant at stake  is doing so at his or her peril and your ignominy.

Rich

[Dean Stokes]

To say your handicap is 10 when you know that it is not (whether or not in your world you think it should be calculated differently) is cheating.  Cheating has no place in golf.

It certainly doesn't. So we can wipe away probably 75% of official ghin/usga handicaps as they are gained taking mulligans, rolling the ball in the fairway (sometimes the rough) and not finishing the hole out because the rules of golf construe all three as 'cheating'.

[Dean Stokes]

I think the importance of a handicap is to be honest and keep accurate scoring. I know the handicap system is hard to understand and is not perfect.  I think the point I was trying to convey when starting the post was  to get an answer why most men lie about their handicap. Some lie to cheat for money, but most lie to look themselves look better.  An example I can think of was when I recently played in Arizona with my brother in law, a man was paired with us.  He said he was a 6 handicap. Well by the second hole when he was slicing balls off the course and into houses and blasting irons into the desert, it was clear that he was not having a bad day, the fact was there was no way in hell he was a 6 handicap!  This is not a rarity. I can't begin to tell you the number of times a person claims to be a single digit handicapper and their swing and game does not match the handicap they claim.

maybe it does given what I have learned about how the system works on this thread.

[Matt Varney]

Doug,

You make a great point that validates what I am saying about handicaps.  If I play with a group of friends and they claim to be a 7, 10 and 12 handicaps then we play 18.  I told them on the range that I was a 10 and guess what I shot 83.  My playing partners on the other hand shoot 86, 90 and 95 respectively.  I was honest and shot a round consistent with my scoring handicap of 10.  I played to my true ability one shot higher that my handicap average.   

This is really simple when you quit using the NASA / USGA formula for calculating handicaps.

I am not a cheater or ball roller or mulligan player.  I play it back and play it down counting all my shots what is the point in lying / vanity handicaps if you can't back it up.  I shoot around 82 not 77 thus I am a 10.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Your "system" works for you and your friends, and there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact I'd venture to say that that's how a lot of people playing with their friends handle handicapping - you know what each is expected to shoot and you handicap relative to each other.  So you're a 10 the way you look at it, your other friends may be 5 and 15, and the strokes are given accordingly.  Perfect, no hassles, have at it.

Obviously the problem with your way of handling this is that it fails when you play against someone you don't know.  And perhaps that never happens - if so, great!

But if your index the way the USGA does things is indeed 5.5, then you can't show up to a tournament and claim 10, now matter how logical you find your easy way of calculating things to be.  You get that, right?  In the end it seems to me you just want to base this on average score, so you can call yourself a 10 instead of the 6-7 that you'd likely get on a decent course.  Fair enough, have at it.   It works for you and your friends.  It just won't work against others who use the USGA handicap system.

The USGA handicapping system was created how it is for many reasons, most above my head, hell I really don't know WHY it is how it is.  A guy like John V. likely could explain it.  What I do believe is that when applied correctly, it works for how most Americans play this game and treat it.  But whether it works or not, or whether anyone likes it or not, well... one key factor is that if there are going to be "net" tournaments among strangers, there simply must be one uniform system that all use.  And thus here in America we have the USGA system, for better or for worse.

Does it allow for sandbagging?  Yes, absolutely.
Does it allow for vanity handicaps?  Check, yes there also.

Is there a better way to do it?
Not that I've heard of, not that would work here in the USA.

TH

[Richard Boult]

Matt, you've simply redefined the meaning of the term handicap.  In your world, handicap means average, in most everyone else's it means whatever the USGA defines it as.  Like Tom said, this is fine among friends who are using your same system. But don't get so tied up in the "value" of your handicap. It's simply a tool to make competition between players of different abilities "fair." You seem to think of it as more of a "label" to define yourself by.  I don't care if the official USGA handicap system calculates my index as a 2.5 or a 25.  All I care about is that the system does its best to make a match against another player as fair as possible.  The current system does that for the most part - assuming everyone posts all their scores, plays by the rules, and tries to score their best every round.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt, you've simply redefined the meaning of the term handicap.  In your world, handicap means average, in everyone else's it means whatever the USGA defines it as.  Don't get so tied up in the "value" of your handicap. It's simply a tool to make competition between players of different abilities "fair." You seem to think of it as more of a "label" to define yourself by.  I don't care if the official USGA handicap system calculates my index as a 2.5 or a 25.  All I care about is that the system does its best to make a match against another player as fair as possible.  The current system does that for the most part - assuming everyone posts all their scores, plays by the rules, and tries to score their best every round.

Art - extremely well said, a succinct and far more logical version of what I just posted.   I couldn't possibly agree more.

Many thanks.

TH

[Bart Bradley]

I have resisted posting on this thread but I just can't hold my tongue any longer.

Matt, handicap does not mean what score you shoot.  You can answer that you usually shoot 10 over when asked "what do you shoot".

The handicap system is not a scoring system.  It is not meant to represent what your score will be.

HANDICAPs are about making the playing field more even for playing against golfers of differing abilities.  It is about setting up a match that is more fair.  Matt, by the things you have posted, you are NOT a 10 handicap.  Yes, you shoot 10 over but that does not equate to a 10 HANDI...

If handicap just meant what score you shoot then you could just walk around being an 82.

For you to tell anyone that you are a 10 handicap is just plain old fashioned cheating and lying no matter how you want to disguise it.

Tom:

I don't think he does get it.  But he should

Bart

[Tom Huckaby]

Bart:  well... if Matt doesn't get that a handicap using average score is a completely different thing than one arrived at using the USGA system, then yes, there is no hope for him.  But I think he does get that.  He wouldn't really show up for a net tournament and claim a 10, would he?

Matt if you are still here, apologies for talking about you in this way.  You wouldn't claim a 10 if you ever played a net tournament, would you?

TH

[Matt Bosela]

My brain hurts reading all of this.

A question for those who feel handicaps should be based on average score versus par...

My average score this year is around 79 - I guess in your world, this means I'm a 7 handicap.

My index is a 2.5 at the moment...in your world, I'm obviously a vanity handicap because I only 'play to my handicap' and break 75 about once every five or six rounds.

The thing you aren't accounting for is the fact I'm playing the back tees every round I play, with the average course rating around 74 or 75 and a slope around 140.  Do you not even think about course difficulty being an issue regarding handicap?

If not, I'll gladly take my '7' and play you from the back tees any day of the week versus your 10 since that obviously doesn't matter much to you.

A handicap takes into account numerous factors, but none of them include PAR, nor should they.  You need to remember that.

[Lou_Duran]

I don't belong to a club of any type or play in tournaments or money games.  I calculate my own handicap index, but sometimes when I tell people that I am a 9 or 10 they just roll their eyes.  This is how I calculate it:

1. Adjust my gross score downward for any single hole score above 6.
2. Subtract the adjusted gross score (the results of #1) from the applicable course rating.
3. Take the result of #2 and multiply by quotient of the applicable slope by 113.
4. Take the lowest 10 from the last 20 scores as calculated in steps 1-3, and divide by 10.

Isn't this the correct methodology?

I was 1-1-1 at the KPVI.  Perhaps I wasn't flighted high enough and the overall results should be invalidated. 

[Richard Boult]

I don't belong to a club of any type or play in tournaments or money games.  I calculate my own handicap index, but sometimes when I tell people that I am a 9 or 10 they just roll their eyes.  This is how I calculate it:

1. Adjust my gross score downward for any single hole score above 6.
2. Subtract the adjusted gross score (the results of #1) from the applicable course rating.
3. Take the result of #2 and multiply by quotient of the applicable slope by 113.
4. Take the lowest 10 from the last 20 scores as calculated in steps 1-3, and divide by 10.

Isn't this the correct methodology?

I was 1-1-1 at the KPVI.  Perhaps I wasn't flighted high enough and the overall results should be invalidated. 

5. Lastly, multiple result from #4 by .96.

[Matt Varney]

Matt,

You and I are much closer than you think.  I also play it all the way back on a course that is about 7,200 yards where they used to play the Nationwide Tour event in our town.  So you mean to tell me that if I play it back and another guy plays the course at 6,200 yards and has a 5 handicap he is better than me?  I would love to see that 5 play from the back and shoot around 80 based on the USGA system.  Your 2.5 handicap is what you have if you want to call it vanity that's fine but, can you shoot 75 all the time?  Probably not so you shoot scores around 80 and we would have a really good match "my Cheating 10 to your USGA 2.5" If you hit one bad tee shot O.B. or putt poorly I would beat you so tell me how that works out?

Average mean score is what it is the math doesn't lie but, you also bring up a great point about USGA handicaps.  You are 2.5 playing from the tips and a guy that is a 2.5 playing from the senior tees is not even close to the same level of player that you are on the same course.  

I understand the reasoning for the flawed system so that you can use it for tournaments and adjust accordingly based on scoring.  What I just can't get through my thick skull is this idea that your handicap is not even close to your ability to shoot those types of scores regardless of your potential to shoot a low score just once during the golf season.

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