[Rick Sides]

Well after looking at he scores for the celebrity match at Torrey Pines yesterday, it is clear that many of the celebrities that claim to have 6 and 7 handicaps are more like 20.  I have to laugh when I read magazine articles were celebrities claim to be a 5 or 6 handicap, then you see them at a pro-am and there swing looks horrible and they are posting double and triple bogeys all over the place.  It' s not that different when playing with a person you never met and they say, I'm around a 10 and they post a 97 and blame the course.  Granted the celebrities in this tournament palyed in US Open conditions, but I think 90% of people either lie about their handicap or have poor math skills when counting shots.

[Richard Boult]

Here's the results of a handicap poll done by Grant Sanders early this year:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33140.0.html

[rjsimper]

Keep in mind that the system is designed so that you "play to your handicap" something like 20% of the time (I don't know the mathematical statistic off the top of my head)...so it is not a reasonable expectation that a 4 handicap SHOULD shoot 4 over par, on average.

Keep in mind yet again that this Torrey Pines exercise uses a course that was rated (was that actual or an estimate?) near 80.  Thus, If Romo is something like a 2 index, and the course rating is about 80, then an 84 is pretty darn near right on.

[JohnV]

As an example, I am a 6.5 index right now and the average of my last 20 scores is 82.5.

Given the course rating over 79 and the slope of 153, I would be a 9 handicap at Torrey right now.  It is highly unlikely that I would shoot 81 (+9 to par).  But, the scratch golfer would be shooting 79 so 88 or so would be a good score.   I'd probably average around 93-95 in 20 rounds there.

In any given round with the pressure they had, the TV crews, spectators etc, I'd say the scores weren't that bad.

[John Sheehan]

It' s not that different when playing with a person you never met and they say, I'm around a 10 and they post a 97 and blame the course.  Granted the celebrities in this tournament palyed in US Open conditions, but I think 90% of people either lie about their handicap or have poor math skills when counting shots.

Rick,
Stuff happens.  A few years ago I was playing to a 7 handicap in a tournament.  Historically, I've had my moments, but have never consistently been a great ball striker or a long hitter.  But I have at times had a pretty good short game.  That day, I had one of the most miserable rounds ever.  I had ONE hole on which I had to take TWO unplayable lies and the ensuing penalty strokes.  I hit two balls OB and three into water hazards.  I had a sh&^%k.  It was a long slog.  But by far the worst part of the day came while sitting on the patio after the round as two guys who didn't know me saw my score (97) and my handicap.  "Who the hell is this guy?  Ninety-seven with a seven handicap?  Talk about vanity handicaps! Jesus!"  I downed my drink and slunk from the scene.  Stuff happens.

[Mike Golden]

As a member at Lake Merced GC I have had scores in medal events ranging from about 78 to about 95.  This is from the back tees that I rarely played except in these events.  Shooting a big number for a single round isn't all that difficult, just make a couple of quads and see how high the score gets on a tough golf course where there aren't many birdie opportunities.  I believe that the 95 round had a 9 and a 10 consecutively (7, and I then birdied 9 and 10 but stopped grinding after that because I knew I was out of contention and it didn't matter-lunch then became the #1 priority...

[Matt Varney]

When I play in events I tell guys I am a 1o handicap.  I play the back tees and play it down and I always shoot around 82 and if my chipping and putting just is not good maybe 85. 

I don't understand why GHIN can say 5.5 and yet you shoot rounds all the time around the low 80's.  You shoot one round say 77 and a couple high 80's everythign else is around 80 and your index is 6.0  go figure sounds like a screwed up system to me.

Guys brag all the time with friends and at the office about their handicap then you take them out and pound them thinking they were going to be competitive and fun to play in a match.  The handicap formula system needs to be tweaked and fixed so that it is accurate not misleading.  I would much rather play as a 10 then shoot a score of 78 and feel like I played much better than my handicap.

[Ken Moum]

When I play in events I tell guys I am a 1o handicap.  I play the back tees and play it down and I always shoot around 82 and if my chipping and putting just is not good maybe 85. 

I don't understand why GHIN can say 5.5 and yet you shoot rounds all the time around the low 80's.  You shoot one round say 77 and a couple high 80's everythign else is around 80 and your index is 6.0  go figure sounds like a screwed up system to me.

Guys brag all the time with friends and at the office about their handicap then you take them out and pound them thinking they were going to be competitive and fun to play in a match.  The handicap formula system needs to be tweaked and fixed so that it is accurate not misleading.  I would much rather play as a 10 then shoot a score of 78 and feel like I played much better than my handicap.

If you "always shoot around 82" from the back tees, you aren't a 10,  not under any system I am aware of.  You're probably closer to 6 than 10.

Like it or not, the system is intended to provide an indication of what a player is capable of. So you handicap is actually based on the average of your ten best scores compared to the course rating.

Ken

[Andrew Summerell]

Rick & Matt,

Are you suggesting that the American handicap system allows too many vanity handicaps ?

[Richard Boult]

When I play in events I tell guys I am a 1o handicap.  I play the back tees and play it down and I always shoot around 82 and if my chipping and putting just is not good maybe 85. 

I don't understand why GHIN can say 5.5 and yet you shoot rounds all the time around the low 80's.  You shoot one round say 77 and a couple high 80's everythign else is around 80 and your index is 6.0  go figure sounds like a screwed up system to me.

Guys brag all the time with friends and at the office about their handicap then you take them out and pound them thinking they were going to be competitive and fun to play in a match.  The handicap formula system needs to be tweaked and fixed so that it is accurate not misleading.  I would much rather play as a 10 then shoot a score of 78 and feel like I played much better than my handicap.

If you "always shoot around 82" from the back tees, you aren't a 10,  not under any system I am aware of.  You're probably closer to 6 than 10.

Like it or not, the system is intended to provide an indication of what a player is capable of. So you handicap is actually based on the average of your ten best scores compared to the course rating.

Ken

Thank you Ken for setting him straight... I hate when people adjust their handicap to what they "usually" score instead of what their "potential" is.  Like it or not, that's the system.  I play to a 2.5, but rarely shoot in the low 70's and still regularly shoot rounds in the 80's.  When I was averaging rounds of 82, I was way lower than a 10!

[Bill_McBride]

Rick & Matt,

Are you suggesting that the American handicap system allows too many vanity handicaps ?

Particularly when you add in the routine practice of conceding five footers in weekend "dogfight" type games.  "That's good" is commonly heard.  We don't do a lot of straight up medal play here, it can be shocking to actually have to post a true score.

I almost had a heart attack when I learned the club championship (senior division) I just signed up for at my summer course will be 54 holes of medal play........

[John Moore II]

A little education about the handicap system
--Par of the course has no bearing on handicap
--Handicap differential is calculated using your score (say 80) minus the course rating (say 72)
--Once you have 5 scores in the handicap system, an offical handicap can be determined
--The full handicap comes from twenty scores, with the best 10 score differential's counting in the score.
--The differentials are then added and averaged
--The mean differential is then multiplied by .96

The USGA link to handicaps is: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html   Section 10-2 defines the handicap index formula.

So, handicap is 96% of your best 10 scores in relation to the course rating, thats why you rarely see people shoot their handicap. For a tour player, I would say that a real handicap for them on the average course that a normal person would play would be somewhere around +6 or 7 for anyone on tour, with Tiger and Phil probably coming in around +11 or 12.

--BTW--my index before turning pro was in the range of 0

[Rick Sides]

I know that every once in a while that people have a terrible round and that it does not reflect what their handicap is or what they normally shoot.  However, I would say 9 out of 10 times when a guy tells me he is a 7 or 8 handicap then proceeds to slice balls into no man's land and barely breaks 100 I find it humorous.  I am by no means a great golfer, about an 18 handicap.  I just wonder if the system is flawed or the majority of guys don't want to actually admit that golf is no easy game and breaking 90 is often difficult when mulligans are not taken on 5 holes and the ball is not picked up within 3 feet of the cup.

[Andrew Summerell]

A little education about the handicap system
--Par of the course has no bearing on handicap
--Handicap differential is calculated using your score (say 80) minus the course rating (say 72)
--Once you have 5 scores in the handicap system, an offical handicap can be determined
--The full handicap comes from twenty scores, with the best 10 score differential's counting in the score.
--The differentials are then added and averaged
--The mean differential is then multiplied by .96

The USGA link to handicaps is: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html   Section 10-2 defines the handicap index formula.

So, handicap is 96% of your best 10 scores in relation to the course rating, thats why you rarely see people shoot their handicap. For a tour player, I would say that a real handicap for them on the average course that a normal person would play would be somewhere around +6 or 7 for anyone on tour, with Tiger and Phil probably coming in around +11 or 12.

--BTW--my index before turning pro was in the range of 0

...But is that how it should be.

Here in Australia, we have a different handicap system & don't use the 'Slope' system. There is always the occasional blowout on the score card, but in general our handicaps are an indication of what we can actually play to every few rounds.

This is not meant to offend anybody, but I have played with thousands of people over the years, but I have rarely seen vanity handicaps with Australian golfers as I have with American golfers.

[Andrew Summerell]

The other thing I have noticed that happens in Australia, that doesn't seem to happen in America. Most Australian clubs have 3 to 5 single round competitions each week, where mulligans & gimme's are, of course, not allowed. I'm sure this helps with realistic handicaps.

[Rick Sides]

That' sound like a good idea Andrew.  I wonder what most people's REAL handicaps would be if they did not take mulligans, did not adjust lies, and holed every putt? 

[John Moore II]

A little education about the handicap system
--Par of the course has no bearing on handicap
--Handicap differential is calculated using your score (say 80) minus the course rating (say 72)
--Once you have 5 scores in the handicap system, an offical handicap can be determined
--The full handicap comes from twenty scores, with the best 10 score differential's counting in the score.
--The differentials are then added and averaged
--The mean differential is then multiplied by .96

The USGA link to handicaps is: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html   Section 10-2 defines the handicap index formula.

So, handicap is 96% of your best 10 scores in relation to the course rating, thats why you rarely see people shoot their handicap. For a tour player, I would say that a real handicap for them on the average course that a normal person would play would be somewhere around +6 or 7 for anyone on tour, with Tiger and Phil probably coming in around +11 or 12.

--BTW--my index before turning pro was in the range of 0

...But is that how it should be.

Here in Australia, we have a different handicap system & don't use the 'Slope' system. There is always the occasional blowout on the score card, but in general our handicaps are an indication of what we can actually play to every few rounds.

This is not meant to offend anybody, but I have played with thousands of people over the years, but I have rarely seen vanity handicaps with Australian golfers as I have with American golfers.

--I am not sure if that is how the handicap system should be, but its how it is. I think that in general, people can shoot near their handicaps if you look at the course rating and not just par. Slope does not count into the Index, only course handicap strokes.

[Dean Stokes]

A little education about the handicap system
--Par of the course has no bearing on handicap
--Handicap differential is calculated using your score (say 80) minus the course rating (say 72)
--Once you have 5 scores in the handicap system, an offical handicap can be determined
--The full handicap comes from twenty scores, with the best 10 score differential's counting in the score.
--The differentials are then added and averaged
--The mean differential is then multiplied by .96

The USGA link to handicaps is: http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html   Section 10-2 defines the handicap index formula.

So, handicap is 96% of your best 10 scores in relation to the course rating, thats why you rarely see people shoot their handicap. For a tour player, I would say that a real handicap for them on the average course that a normal person would play would be somewhere around +6 or 7 for anyone on tour, with Tiger and Phil probably coming in around +11 or 12.

--BTW--my index before turning pro was in the range of 0

...But is that how it should be.

Here in Australia, we have a different handicap system & don't use the 'Slope' system. There is always the occasional blowout on the score card, but in general our handicaps are an indication of what we can actually play to every few rounds.

This is not meant to offend anybody, but I have played with thousands of people over the years, but I have rarely seen vanity handicaps with Australian golfers as I have with American golfers.

Andrew, I have to say the same thing about golf in the UK. We generally have two club 'medals' every week (strokeplay competitions on Wednesday and Saturday). These are the scores that can contribute towards your handicap. You cannot just go out with your friends or even alone and put in a score to count for your handicap.
Your handicap should reflect the scores you shoot from the back tees in a competition situation with someone else marking your card, not from a round where you happen to play well and decide that one will do!

I have had the good fortune to work at several private clubs here in the States over the last ten years and may I say respectfully, there has to be something wrong with the handicap system.
I have stood on the first tee hundreds of times and listened to the handicaps being given out. In watching the golf and keeping the 'true' scores it is apparent that not many golfers can play anywhere near their 'chosen' handicap, certainly not without mulligans, suspect drops, given putts from six feet and a 'magic' pencil.

There is a definite lack of club strokeplay events here within clubs - something my Head Pro and I tried to rectify - almost costing us both our careers.



 

[Wayne_Freedman]

Talk about Hollywood handicaps...I cover the Crosby most years, and see a wide range of honesty.
Dennis Quaid, for example, claimed to be a 2 a couple of years ago. No way. More like a 10, and played worse. His steel-vice, claw putting grip gave it away.

The answer to this lunacy...calculate handicaps from tournament scores, only.

My index ranges in the 5's. I actually shoot it maybe one every four or five times out, and rarely shoot lower.

[Mike Golden]

I know that every once in a while that people have a terrible round and that it does not reflect what their handicap is or what they normally shoot.  However, I would say 9 out of 10 times when a guy tells me he is a 7 or 8 handicap then proceeds to slice balls into no man's land and barely breaks 100 I find it humorous.  I am by no means a great golfer, about an 18 handicap.  I just wonder if the system is flawed or the majority of guys don't want to actually admit that golf is no easy game and breaking 90 is often difficult when mulligans are not taken on 5 holes and the ball is not picked up within 3 feet of the cup.

you have obviously never belonged to a private club, where handicaps are both accurate and reflective of ability.  There are always a few vanity handicaps, but far more prevalent are sandbaggers who make sure their handicaps are higher than they should be so they can win in net tournaments

[Dean Stokes]

I know that every once in a while that people have a terrible round and that it does not reflect what their handicap is or what they normally shoot.  However, I would say 9 out of 10 times when a guy tells me he is a 7 or 8 handicap then proceeds to slice balls into no man's land and barely breaks 100 I find it humorous.  I am by no means a great golfer, about an 18 handicap.  I just wonder if the system is flawed or the majority of guys don't want to actually admit that golf is no easy game and breaking 90 is often difficult when mulligans are not taken on 5 holes and the ball is not picked up within 3 feet of the cup.

you have obviously never belonged to a private club, where handicaps are both accurate and reflective of ability.  There are always a few vanity handicaps, but far more prevalent are sandbaggers who make sure their handicaps are higher than they should be so they can win in net tournaments

Mike, which private club are you a member at? I have worked as an assistant pro and a caddie at 6 or 7 private clubs here. That means I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of golfers in my twelve years in the States. I would say that in a strokeplay situation ( whick is extremely rare) - at least 80% of private club golfers could not play to their handicap on a regular basis. As I said earlier, I have witnessed this time and time again and it baffles me how somebody can give themselves a 7 handicap when there is no way on earth they can break 90. Maybe you can explain.

[Glenn Spencer]

It has long been my contention that Dean is correct and not many club players can do it. "Club" players are beat before the match begins and that is because they are playing mostly at their club and that is why their handicap is a few strokes lower. That is my explanation, anyway.

[Mark Pearce]

What I take from this thread is that the USGA handicap system is worse than useless and that people don't understand handicaps.  I play off 12.  I was, until late last season off 11.  I play perhaps 15 competitive rounds at my home club and a couple of opens at other clubs each year (this year next weekend at Cruden Bay and August at Elie).  These rounds are off the back tees and to R&A rules.  No other rounds count for anything.  If I play well twice in those rounds my handicap will stay where it is.  If I play really well ( a net 3 or 4 under) I'll get cut. If I play badly in all 15 I'll go up one stroke. 

The nonsense we have matching UK/ROW handicaps to US indexes at BUDA appears to mostly be because CONGU, whatever its faults (and it has many) measures real golfing ability, the USGA handicap system appears to measure whatever the subject wants it to measure.

[JLahrman]

I would say that in a strokeplay situation ( whick is extremely rare) - at least 80% of private club golfers could not play to their handicap on a regular basis.

Define 'regular basis'.  As mentioned, for better or for worse the handicap system is not designed for ANYONE to play to their handicap on a regular basis, unless your definition of regular basis is different from mine.

Out of my last 20 scores, we're only looking at the best 10.  Then my handicap (with some adjustments) is approximately the average of those 10 scores.  Meaning only about 5 of my last 20 scores are under my handicap.

Obviously some out there are giving themselves a few putts, but even if you count everything you're not going to be playing to your handicap that often.

I'm an 8.5 at the moment.  Tell me what you think I should be shooting and then see if that's what I have been posting.  Here are my scores (rating/slopes are generally in the neighborhood of 72.5/122):

79 (1)
80 (1)
81 (3)
82 (2)
83 (1)
84 (2)
85 (4)
86 (1)
87 (2)
88 (1)
90 (1)
91 (1)

So I'm an 8.5, but half the time I'm putting up an 85 or worse...

[Matt Varney]

Andrew,

Yes the GHIN System is for vanity so guys can talk about their single digit handicap.  Reality is the system needs to not be based on your potential to score lower than your average but, accurate to your current game.  If you go out and shoot scores around 80 to 82 on a par 72 course you should have an 8 to 10 handicap index period end of story.  Telling me I have a 6 is joke and I have to get really lucky hit every fairway and make some bomb putts to shoot 78.

This potential bullshit to shoot a lower score is crazy.  I have the potential to make millions every year if I get lucky and all the stars line up on my business deals.  Reality is I make a comfortable living and I shoot 82 most of the time playing golf.

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