[TEPaul]

"It is the same book that contained Hugh Wilson's description of the NGLA visit, which has been completely misunderstood for all these years."


David Moriarty:

I beg your pardon, what do you mean Hugh Wilson's description of the NGLA visit was completely misunderstood all these years? Misunderstood by whom? I think we here in Philadelphia understand that visit pretty well and always have and now we understand the details of it a little better via MCC board meeting minutes. Unfortunately the date of it was not given but the extent of it was explained in slightly more detail. It even looks like they got up there in the late pm or near the evening and went over Macdonald's drawings from abroad and his plans of NGLA probably in his cottage and then spent the next day going over the golf course with the same goal in mind. Then they went home. I get the feeling from the course of other events the visit probably took place in or nearer March. 

[TEPaul]

"Have you ever found anything in your research about how they harvested the seed they sold, or where their source of seed was from?"


Bradley:

That's a great question and one that seems pretty hard to answer, at least for me.

But here's what I think I can tell from reading about a thousand agronomy letters between the Wilsons of Merion and Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture.

I don't think the early users of what was being sold as "grass seed" for golf by some of these seed vendors, including Carters, was well known at all. Not only were the early users not aware where it was harvested they really weren't aware what it was. It seems like the truth was those early seed vendors would put all kinds of types of seed in those bags they sold perhaps under the basic Darwinian concept that if you put enough types of seed in those bags something would probably survive. 

This is precisely the problem Macdonald had at NGLA during his initial grow-in---eg there was all kinds of stuff in those bags creating a massive multi-strain management problem before most all of it just burnt up because his soil didn't have enough nutrient and binder mixture in it. He got some initial growth including weeds and other crap that was probably in those bags.

And into the Wilson and Merion years with Piper and Oakley Wilson was always sending seed and turf plots to the US Dept of Agriculture to get them to analyze it to tell him what kind of grass it was. At that point they were working with what they thought were up to about a dozen different strains never being that sure how any of them would perform long term. At Merion there was even some indigenous strain that came back up after disking that they actually used for years. I can't remember the name of it---Richie Valentine told me about it once. Whatever it was called the name "Merion" was always in front of it.

Obviously, one of the biggest problems in those early years was what was in those bags was not necessarily what was advertized and it was also generally impure and unwashed which could cause some real problems after grow in.

Matter of fact, near the end of the teens Wilson and Flynn and Piper and Oakley began to perfect some bent strains and Howard Toomey even wanted to monopolize it in various ways such as its application process (he invented some application mechanism) with them but they wouldn't let him do that.

When Toomey and Flynn hooked up they bought a farm in Montgomery County where they constantly experimented with over a hundred grass strains. The word on the street was that Flynn had become the best in the business with applied grass strains on courses.

Flynn's daughter told us that Montgomery County Farm was quite the agronomic experimental station but it also served to house their construction crews as well as a place for Toomey to get his show-girl wife out of town as she regularly went crazy on the sauce if he let her hang around Philly. 

[TEPaul]

Frederick Winslow Taylor was a very rich Philadelphia Quaker who was pretty much the pure inventor. He was into all kinds of things and he actually became world famous for something entirely different from golf or agronomy (he invented the so-called "Scientific Management Method" which basically became the general construct for employer/employee management methods).

Taylor (perhaps along with his gardener Bender) also invented the so-called "Taylor Green Construction Method" that was a form of 45 degree angle layering (some call it the precursor to the "USGA Spec" green construction method). It was what was first used at the new Sunnybrook course in Philadelphia (early teens) of which Taylor was one of the founders. Those Sunnybrook greens were the best by far and they definitely got Hugh Wilson's attention, and Crump's as well. Approximately six of Pine Valley's greens were transitioned to the Taylor green construction method before Taylor died in 1915. (Taylor was also one of the founders or very early members of Pine Valley).

The death of Taylor in 1915 is actually what got Hugh Wilson to swing into action to get all of Taylor's personal agronomic and green construction research. Wilson went right to the executor of his estate, one Joe Clark, a big man in Philly and PA---either he or his son would become Philly's mayor and later PA's senator.

Wilson got all of Taylor's research and in a way that's what became the basis of their "Bulletin" which would eventualy lead to the creation of the USGA Green Section of which first Piper and then Oakley would become the chairman.

[Dan Moore]

Macdonald and the Foulis' brothers pioneered the use of various grass seeds as early as 1897 at The Chicago Golf Club.  John Thorp a grass expert was consulted.   Bent grass was imported from Holland in 1897 for the greens.   They tried various seed in different plots and decided on Kentucky Blue Grass (3 parts) and Red Top (1 part) for the fairways. 

[DMoriarty]

I beg your pardon, what do you mean Hugh Wilson's description of the NGLA visit was completely misunderstood all these years? Misunderstood by whom? I think we here in Philadelphia understand that visit pretty well and always have and now we understand the details of it a little better via MCC board meeting minutes. Unfortunately the date of it was not given but the extent of it was explained in slightly more detail. It even looks like they got up there in the late pm or near the evening and went over Macdonald's drawings from abroad and his plans of NGLA probably in his cottage and then spent the next day going over the golf course with the same goal in mind. Then they went home. I get the feeling from the course of other events the visit probably took place in or nearer March. 

Every other modern written account with which I am familiar (including the Merion histories, C&W's book, other accounts by other golf writers and historians, and about everyone else who has written on this subject on and off the website)  provides a similar understanding of the NGLA trip: 

Wilson traveled to NGLA in preparation for his trip abroad so that Macdonald could: 

   1.  Help him plan what courses to see; and

   2.  Provide a general description of the principles underlying some of the holes on these courses. 

That is it. 

But in reality, the NGLA trip was about Merion East.   More particularly, according to Wilson, M&W were teaching them how to incorporate the principles of the great holes into the terrain at Merion East.  In other words, they were planning the course.

This is a pretty radical departure from what had been previously believed.  You, Wayne, and virtually everyone else have long viewed Macdonald and Wilson as little more than glorified travel agents.   In contrast, I view them as active and integral participants (at the very least) in the design process.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can someone post the picture of the 18th hole at Pine Valley that appeared in a seed company advertisement ?

It's the photo that shows the prominent mound in the middle of the green.

Thanks

[TEPaul]

"This is a pretty radical departure from what had been previously believed.  You, Wayne, and virtually everyone else have long viewed Macdonald and Wilson as little more than glorified travel agents.   In contrast, I view them as active and integral participants (at the very least) in the design process."


David Moriarty:

At this point that is just little more that unmitigated BULLSHIT on your part. What in the F... is your problem anyway, Pal?

Nobody here (us or Merion) has EVER said Macdonald acted as a GLORIFIED TRAVEL AGENT to Wilson and Merion, not ever, not a single one of us. That was a term you tried to hang on us over here all by yourself. Those are your ideas and terms not ours and they've become just pathetic----JUST REALLY PATHETIC! They are not only pathetic lies on your part they are just unmitigatedly insulting remarks to Merion, its members past and present and to us.

We now know a lot more about that trip to NGLA than you do or probably ever will and we also know a lot more about the story of that 1910 Wilson trip abroad than you do or ever will and after more of this kind of horseshit from you at this point I jsut can't imagine why Merion or any of us would EVER want to tell you a thing about it.

You have just got to be about the most transparently self-promoting but pathetic little gnat imaginable.

The upshot of all this is we now know more clearly than we ever did who routed and designed Merion East and it most definitely WAS NOT Macdonald and Whigam as you so sophistly have tried to promote with that essay or yours and your remarkably disingenuous posts on here since.

We told you this all along but you just won't listen and now I doubt anyone gives a rat's ass if you ever do!

[DMoriarty]

"This is a pretty radical departure from what had been previously believed.  You, Wayne, and virtually everyone else have long viewed Macdonald and Wilson as little more than glorified travel agents.   In contrast, I view them as active and integral participants (at the very least) in the design process."


David Moriarty:

At this point that is just little more that unmitigated BULLSHIT on your part. What in the F... is your problem anyway, Pal?

Nobody here (us or Merion) has EVER said Macdonald acted as a GLORIFIED TRAVEL AGENT to Wilson and Merion, not ever, not a single one of us. That was a term you tried to hang on us over here all by yourself. Those are your ideas and terms not ours and they've become just pathetic----JUST REALLY PATHETIC! They are not only pathetic lies on your part they are just unmitigatedly insulting remarks to Merion, its members past and present and to us.

We now know a lot more about that trip to NGLA than you do or probably ever will and we also know a lot more about the story of that 1910 Wilson trip abroad than you do or ever will and after more of this kind of horseshit from you at this point I jsut can't imagine why Merion or any of us would EVER want to tell you a thing about it.

You have just got to be about the most transparently self-promoting but pathetic little gnat imaginable.

The upshot of all this is we now know more clearly than we ever did who routed and designed Merion East and it most definitely WAS NOT Macdonald and Whigam as you so sophistly have tried to promote with that essay or yours and your remarkably disingenuous posts on here since.

We told you this all along but you just won't listen and now I doubt anyone gives a rat's ass if you ever do!

"Glorified travel agent" was my synopsis of the conventional wisdom.  I did not use quotes and did not say it was your phrase.  I explain what i mean in the post.    It is pretty descriptive of how CBM's role had been reduced.   Here is just one example.   Below is a brief excerpt from the "Merion History" section on the GAP Website.  I've bolded the entire description of the NGLA trip.  In fact, this is the only mention of Macdonald's involvement. (Whigham is not mentioned.)

". . . And when the committee concluded that o first-hand look at Britainís best courses was essential before turning so much as a spadeful of dirt on Ardmore Avenue, Wilson was the logical choice to make the trip. . . .

Before sailing, Wilson made it a point to visit Charles Macdonald at Southampton, where the National was under construction. Macdonald was able to advise the young pilgrim on the courses that were, if you will, "required reading," and to suggest the aspects of those renowned eighteens that should particularly be noted.

Hugh Wilson spent some seven months abroad. For the most part it was the shrines of Scotland and England he was playing and studying, though on occasion he visited less well-known courses, including some of the inland ones near London, such as Stoke Poges and Swinley Forest. After all, the new Merion course he was charged with laying out would scarcely be seaside. . . ."

Surely you agree that my view, as expressed in my last post, is a radical departure from this. 

Who wrote the article on Merion's History for the GAP? 

[TEPaul]

"Surely you agree that my view, as expressed in my last post, is a radical departure from this. 




David Moriarty:

I don't agree with anything you say anymore and certainly I don't agree with the way you've been saying whatever in the hell it is you're trying to say or prove or whatever. I don't agree with your assumptions or premises or conclusion in your essay and I don't agree with anything else you do on here.

We here know what Macdonald did and it's no different than what Alan or Hugh Wilson said. The committee went to NGLA for two days he showed them drawings from abroad, he showed them his plans of NGLA and he took them out on the course the next day and showed them the golf course and the principles of architecture as he believed them to be.

Both Wilsons reported this is what the committee learned from him. He came to Merion in June 1910 and advised Merion's search committee on his and Whigam's opinions on the site for a course and he came again in April 1911 and helped them select one of their plans and he went out on the ground with them in a single day. He advised them and he made some suggestions for which they were grateful and said so both in their minutes and their later reports. Other than that Hugh Wilson and his committee designed the East and West courses and all four members of that committee informed Alan Wilson 'that in the main Mr H Wilson was in the main responsible for the architecture of Merion's East and West courses.'

THAT is the story of the creation of the East and West courses and the accurate historical record of the facts, David Moriarty, and to date despite your usual histrionics you have done nothing, I repeat nothing to refute it!  You can continue to try to cast it anyway you want from here on out but it won't make any difference to the accurate record of the creation of Merion East and who did it.



"Who wrote the article on Merion's History for the GAP?"


Jim Finegan wrote that. Jim Finegan has had a long and impressive career in golf and architecture book and article writing, and he recently won the USGA's Herbert Warren Wind award for one of his recent books and the man in every single way is worth about ten thousand people like you who just dabble in this stuff to make some instant name for yourself with outrageous sophistry and attempts at historic revisionism.

So why don't you just grow up or get real or whatever it takes for you to just lay off these ridiculous hairsplitting distinctions you're trying to make that the things you're saying are "synopses", your "characterizations" of our words or whatever other lame rationalization you're going to come up with next. I'm just so sick of these constant insinuations about some of us here in Philadephia. It's just preposterous and if you can't figure out why you went about all of this completely wrong beginning a few years ago I guess we can never help you to understand it now.

One thing you did prove, as far as I'm concerned, is that the 1912 rumor that Wilson almost went down on the Titanic in 1912 was actually true. You did not prove the facts behind where that 1910 trip story may've come from. We have most likely done that recently and the odd thing is it may not have come within a half century of the actual event but the point is it makes absolutely no difference anyway and more documentary evidence we've come across confirms that more than ever before.

[Bradley Anderson]

Dan,

You wrote: Macdonald and the Foulis' brothers pioneered the use of various grass seeds as early as 1897 at The Chicago Golf Club.  John Thorp a grass expert was consulted.   Bent grass was imported from Holland in 1897 for the greens.   They tried various seed in different plots and decided on Kentucky Blue Grass (3 parts) and Red Top (1 part) for the fairways. 

Now you have introduced another name to the mix: John Thorp. Could you send me whatever you have on him?

[TEPaul]

Dan Moore:

Do you have any idea what kind of agronomic results Macdonald and Foulis and Thorp got in Chicago before the turn of the century with what they imported and used?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

You asked me two questions, and I answered your questions, the first of which was:

. . . what do you mean Hugh Wilson's description of the NGLA visit was completely misunderstood all these years?

The answer is that the trip was thought to be about Wilson's trip abroad.   Specifically, everyone thought that Macdonald's sole contribution during the meeting was to offer advice on Wilson's itinerary and to describe some of what he should look for on these courses.  Since all they were understood to have done was to offer advice about the trip, I wrote they merely considered glorified travel agents.  I almost wrote they were considered the Fodor's of GCA Travel.  Do you like that better?

You also asked: 

Misunderstood by whom?

The answer is that just about everyone who has ever written about this issue has misunderstood it, including Cornish and Whitten, Shackelford, Toulmin, apparently Finnegan, Wayne Morrison, you, and a whole bunch of others who have repeated the legend.   

For this you cuss at me, insult me, call me names, and falsely accuse me of insulting Merion.  Why?   Why on Earth are you so upset about me simply answering these questions?   Especially given that the answers  are so obvious.

The conventional wisdom about the Merion trip long been that Wilson traveled to NGLA in preparation for his trip abroad so that Macdonald could: 
   1.  Help him plan what courses to see; and
   2.  Provide a general description of the principles underlying some of the holes on these courses. 

This was not the case.  They went to NGLA so M&W could continue to help them plan the course.

 Yet you fly completely off the handle when I state it in answer to your question.   You are not seriously considing denying this are you?   Deny it if you want to, but at least do it civilly.

You are behaving very rudely, and I'd like you to stop.  If you cannot deal with honest and straight-forward answers to your questions then you should take a break from the website.  You obviously need it.   You are completely out of control. 

"Who wrote the article on Merion's History for the GAP?"

Jim Finegan wrote that. Jim Finegan has had a long and impressive career in golf and architecture book and article writing, and he recently won the USGA's Herbert Warren Wind award for one of his recent books and the man in every single way is worth about ten thousand people like you who just dabble in this stuff to make some instant name for yourself with outrageous sophistry and attempts at historic revisionism.

 

I have great respect for Mr. Finnegan's work, and I am sure that he appreciates that any understanding of history is in flux and that this particular understanding appears to have been mistaken.   

You seem to think that correcting the historical record is the same as insulting or disprespecting those who have repeated the historical record in the past.  This is  not the case.  I have great respect for Geoff Shackelford, yet believe his book is mistaken about this issue.  Same goes for Cornish and Whitten, same goes for Mr. Toulmin, same goes for Mr. Finnegan.   Disagreeing about some mundane issue is much different than disrespecting them.

So why don't you just grow up or get real or whatever it takes for you to just lay off these ridiculous hairsplitting distinctions you're trying to make that the things you're saying are "synopses", your "characterizations" of our words or whatever other lame rationalization you're going to come up with next. I'm just so sick of these constant insinuations about some of us here in Philadephia. It's just preposterous and if you can't figure out why you went about all of this completely wrong beginning a few years ago I guess we can never help you to understand it now.

Insinuations?  About what?  You shouldn't take this so personally.  Nor should you try to twist the historical record to try and pretend that you and others had not been wrong about these issues for years.   That would be dishonest and transparent.  It is history.  We are all wrong some of the time.  We just go on and try to work it out.   I was wrong about thinking there may have been a detailed description of the routing in CBM's letter.  You guys were wrong about the timing of Wilson's travel, the purpose of the NGLA visit, and the extent of CBM's and HJW's involvement in Merion.   No big deal.  Not worth getting so worked up over.   

One thing you did prove, as far as I'm concerned, is that the 1912 rumor that Wilson almost went down on the Titanic in 1912 was actually true. You did not prove the facts behind where that 1910 trip story may've come from. We have most likely done that recently and the odd thing is it may not have come within a half century of the actual event but the point is it makes absolutely no difference anyway and more documentary evidence we've come across confirms that more than ever before.

I hate to disagree again, but I have not proven this at all.  I proved that Wilson traveled around the same time as the Titanic, long after he built Merion.  This falls well short of proving the legend that he had a ticket on the Titanic but missed the boat.  You and Wayne claim to have proof of this, but have not produced the proof yet.  I suspect that you guys might be confusing proof with family legend, but it sure would be interesting if you actually have the proof you claim to have.   

Take a break Tom.  Or if you won't, I suggest you just do not pay any attention to me if I bother you so much.  If I am as wrong as you claim I am it should be of no problem for you and Wayne to prove it in your essay.   That is if you ever decide to produce the sources backing up what you claim.   

Of course any accurate essay will rely heavily on my findings and analysis, but I am sure you guys will try to figure a way around this.  I look forward to it.

Good Luck Tom.  And take it easy.   No reason to get so worked up about such trivial matters.

DM

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, I think we should let all those prior historians off the hook as I've never even remotely understood any of their accounts, including those of the Wilson boys, as inferring that M+W as glorified travel agents.  In fact, I always understood the itinerarary planning as a very secondary part of the lesson, most likely covered in less than an hour.

The other reason to let them off the hook is because if anyone ever used that term, it was likely me.

Although I probably actually said that Macdonald was not much better than a typical Philadelphia travel agent at the time and would be way too opinionated to be of objective value and his toady Whigham, whose knowledge was actually of potential benefit, was much to cowering in the shadow of popinlaw Charley to speak up when asked. 

[TEPaul]

"Take a break Tom.  Or if you won't, I suggest you just do not pay any attention to me if I bother you so much.  If I am as wrong as you claim I am it should be of no problem for you and Wayne to prove it in your essay.   That is if you ever decide to produce the sources backing up what you claim."


I think that's good advice. I'm afraid noone around here I'm aware of really cares anymore what you think about the creation of Merion, particularly after they've read that you've concluded in your essay Macdonald routed the golf course in 1910. Every shred of documentary evidence refutes that but apparently that doesn't stop you from trying to torture the words and meaning of all that evidence to some preposterous degree.

We will write an essay for Merion going into far more detail on all the events between 1910 and 1911 including the business structure and the importance of its timing and structuring to what happened with the architecture (certainly including the Francis story) and when and we will quote all the MCC meeting minutes and supporting letters if permission is granted. You're certainly welcome to draw your own conclusions at that point, just like anyone else, but I doubt anyone here will pay much attention to what you have to say after the events of the last month or so. 

[Thomas MacWood]

I'm really behind on all the Merion discovery...I'm stilll trying to figure why Wilson and his familly went to Argentina. Isn't Argentina known for its meat?  Was Wilson involved in exporting meat by chance? Perhaps that is why he headed the committee, he was giving the others free steak. Is it possible that the real reason Macdonald & Whigham were assisting at Merion was for the prime rib Wilson was bringing back with him. I understand Macdonald had quite an appetite.

Is it true that Wilson invented the cheesesteak sandwich, a Philly icon, using imported Argentinian beef?

This story would be extremely damaging IMO if it saw the light of day, and should be descredited ASAP.

[DMoriarty]

I'm really behind on all the Merion discovery...I'm stilll trying to figure why Wilson and his familly went to Argentina. Isn't Argentina known for its meat?  Was Wilson involved in exporting meat by chance? Perhaps that is why he headed the committee, he was giving the others free steak. Is it possible that the real reason Macdonald & Whigham were assisting at Merion was for the prime rib Wilson was bringing back with him. I understand Macdonald had quite an appetite.

Is it true that Wilson invented the cheesesteak sandwich, a Philly icon, using imported Argentinian beef?

This story would be extremely damaging IMO if it saw the light of day, and should be descredited immediately.

Man, you are behind. 

When the committee appointed Wilson in 1907, they told him to travel overseas and learn how to "stake out Merion."  Unfortunately, he thought they meant "steak out Merion."   So he traveled to Argentina and came back with 100 head of prime Argentinean steers. 

Not wanting any more mistakes (misteaks?) Merion sent him up to Macdonald, so that Macdonald could explain exactly where he needed to go. 

As for the steers, they so overcrowded the cricket grounds that Merion had to buy the Ardmore property to give them room to graze.  Their by-product is the agronomy secret at Merion.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

That's some pretty interesting speculation there on your part. However, somehow I would've suspected you'd be thinking that if Hugh Wilson really did go to Argentina it would've been so he could check out the Argentinian branch of William Morris' globe-straddling "Arts and Craft' Movement so he would be well prepared to go home and build the type of course you could claim as an example of "Arts and Crafts Golf Course Architecture."

Maybe there are some 1910 Buenos Aires newspaper articles down there somewhere you might find to prove that.

[Kirk Gill]

The conventional wisdom about the Merion trip long been that Wilson traveled to NGLA in preparation for his trip abroad so that Macdonald could: 
   1.  Help him plan what courses to see; and
   2.  Provide a general description of the principles underlying some of the holes on these courses. 

This was not the case.  They went to NGLA so M&W could continue to help them plan the course.

David, I'm not sharpshooting you here, but is that why they went to NGLA? Were M&W help them plan Merion East, or providing a more general education? Macdonald's letter was pretty general. How do we know that the subjects discussed during this visit were regarding specific design features of Merion and not more general agronomic or design discussions?

I think that you're right that the notion of M&W's participation in the early days of Merion has been dropped from many if not most descriptions of the early days of the course. A quick google search on Merion's history will inevitably bring up Hugh Wilson and his trip abroad prior to designing and building the course, and that has been brought into question, at least the timing of his trip. While a trip earlier than 1912 hasn't been ruled out, there's real evidence of the 1912 trip, and that makes some of the thumbnail histories of Merion and their rote recitation of Wilson's trip potentially inaccurate. But it looks like all of the earlier accounts do mention Macdonald and Whigham, and the help they provided. I don't see some kind of calcutated effort by anyone to diminish their role. But I still am waiting for something firmer on their design role - and that firmer ground just may not exist, other than Whigham's eulogy of Macdonald. I certainly don't want to dismiss that out of hand - as you know Whigham was an impressive individual. Still, do we really know more about M&W's involvement with Merion now then we did before? Maybe I need it all in black and white, and just haven't seen it yet.

As to "Turf for Golf Courses," the entire book can be read online at:

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/turfgrass/TurfForGolf/

[TEPaul]

"The answer is that just about everyone who has ever written about this issue has misunderstood it, including Cornish and Whitten, Shackelford, Toulmin, apparently Finnegan, Wayne Morrison, you, and a whole bunch of others who have repeated the legend."

David Moriarty:

I'm most interested to know why you included the name Toulmin in that group of people. Do you mean Dr Harry Toulmin who served on Hugh Wilson's committee?   

[DMoriarty]

"The answer is that just about everyone who has ever written about this issue has misunderstood it, including Cornish and Whitten, Shackelford, Toulmin, apparently Finnegan, Wayne Morrison, you, and a whole bunch of others who have repeated the legend."

David Moriarty:

I'm most interested to know why you included the name Toulmin in that group of people. Do you mean Dr Harry Toulmin who served on Hugh Wilson's committee?   

My mistake. I meant Tolhurst.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom:

That's some pretty interesting speculation there on your part. However, somehow I would've suspected you'd be thinking that if Hugh Wilson really did go to Argentina it would've been so he could check out the Argentinian branch of William Morris' globe-straddling "Arts and Craft' Movement so he would be well prepared to go home and build the type of course you could claim as an example of "Arts and Crafts Golf Course Architecture."

Maybe there are some 1910 Buenos Aires newspaper articles down there somewhere you might find to prove that.

TE
Speaking of A&C, you may be interested in the article 'Wilson Eyre and Arts & Crafts of Philadelphia' from the Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Oct/1971. As you may know Eyre designed Allgates - Horatio Lloyd's home. As the story goes one fateful evening Richard Francis bicycled from his home near the RR station to Allgates with a side of beef tied to his handlebars. A most difficult journey no doubt.

[TEPaul]

"The answer is that just about everyone who has ever written about this issue has misunderstood it, including Cornish and Whitten, Shackelford, Toulmin, apparently Finnegan, Wayne Morrison, you, and a whole bunch of others who have repeated the legend.   

The conventional wisdom about the Merion trip long been that Wilson traveled to NGLA in preparation for his trip abroad so that Macdonald could: 
   1.  Help him plan what courses to see;"





David Moriarty:

I wonder if you understand or appreciate why I asked you why you mentioned Toulmin.

That's right, the story of Wilson going to see Macdonald perhaps in 1910 and then traveling abroad in 1910 and for perhaps seven months and then returning with drawings and sketches and surveyor's maps from abroad has been repeated by all those people you mentioned and perhaps others earlier---it's hard to say when that story first began or how it got into Merion's history.

You are constantly looking for proof of most anything I say and in this case I'm going to tell you I am not offering proof and I'm not trying to but I will give you my opinion on that story.

I think at some point, perhaps as much removed from the actual events in 1910 and 1911 as a half century, that story entered Merion's history. Of course one wonders why or how. My own feeling is someone, again removed from the actual events by as much as a number of decades, may've simply misinterpreted Alan Wilson's 1926 report on the creation of Merion when he wrote: "The land was FOUND in 1910 and as a first step Mr Wilson was sent abroad to study the famous courses in Scotand and England."

As anyone can see, Alan Wilson did not actually say Hugh Wilson went abroad in 1910 and he never mentioned when Hugh Wilson (and his committee?) went to see Macdonald at NGLA either. Hugh Wilson did not mention any date for the visit to NGLA either but the board meeting minutes most certainly does narrow it down more than anything we've ever seen before. As to Why Alan Wilson said, "as a first step" is hard to say too but the fact that he was writing that report about fifteen years after the fact might have something to do with it.

So, my feeling is that report of Wilson's was misinterpreted along the way, again, perhaps removed from the actual event by up to half a century. The remainder of the story of seven months and plans and drawings is the remainder of the mystery of that story. Perhaps someone just misinterpreted the fact that Macdonald showed them his plans and drawings from abroad at NGLA. As for the seven months perhaps someone misconstrued the fact that he apparently went abroad in 1912 for up to SEVERAL months (It could not possibly have been more than two months).

Simply for interest we could try to look for the beginning of that story as far back as we can find a mention of it anywhere, again it may've been 40-50 years after the fact, but the point is it does not make any difference at all as to what actually happened in 1910 and 1911 and who did what and when. The facts of that are contained in the MCC meeting minutes.

When those are eventually made known I'm sure anyone could try to say those too are total exaggerations or lies or whatever but I guarantee that kind of deduction, assumption, premise or conclusion will not interest us here or Merion because the idea that men like that trying to build a golf course would exaggerate or lie to one another in the course of something like board meetings is frankly completely preposterous.

But I have little doubt the way this whole thing has gone on this website that someone probably will suggest such a preposterous thing at some point in the future, but again, neither we nor Merion will be paying any attention to it in the future.

Now if someone could actually produce a Macdonald routing done in 1910 or 1911 that would be an entirely different matter and if it turned out to be the way the course was constructed I assure you people like Wayne and me would strenuously recommend to Merion that Macdonald be given something co-design credit for Merion East with Wilson and his committee. But given all the other information available the possibility of a Macdonald routing and design plan for Merion East ever being producted by anyone is, in my opinion, virtually non-existent.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Speaking of A&C, you may be interested in the article 'Wilson Eyre and Arts & Crafts of Philadelphia' from the Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians,"


Tom:

That's true, and I've read all about Wilson Eyre and I went over to visit the vestiges of Allgates the other day. Philadelphia had, and still has, some very strong "arts and crafts" influences particularly centered around an area called Rose Valley.

I even told you once that I grew up in a house in Isleborough Maine built around the turn of the century by my grandfather or great grandfather that's one of the best examples of an "English Cottage/AC" style but as usual you just made some dumb joke about that obviously always trying to make the point that no one even if they grew up with stuff like that could possibly understand it as well as some "expert researcher" who read some books about it such as yourself! Really silly, really silly!   

By the way, Tom, do you have any idea who Horatio Gates Lloyd was? How about Clement Griscom or Rodman or Lloyd Griscom or Frederick Baily or T. DeWitt Cuyler? You're the guy who likes all that background research on people involved in these clubs and their architecture, right? Did you know that Frederick Baily's father, Joshua Baily, met John Rushkin AND William Morris in the 19th century at an Arts and Crafts party in the country outside London where Gertrude Jekyll came dressed in only a very skimpy and very sexy rhododendren bush and that Joshua Baily apparently talked to all three of them for over 17 minutes? With that, is there any question that virtually proves Merion East should be labeled "Arts and Crafts" style architecture? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Nice to see some humor bandied about

Wilson would not have gone to charlie fore advice on steak;HAM eas macdonald's specialty.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Nice to see some humor bandied about

Agreed Mike, it sure would be. 

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