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jg7236

Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« on: July 14, 2002, 12:16:13 AM »
Who today is known for routing a great golf course on a small piece of property.  I know Perry Dye is known for that, he has done a lot of work in Asia, everybody knows there isn't much land available so one has to ultilize every little inch that is given.  Here in Las Vegas he designed Desert Pines on about 115 acres, great layout.  A new course that is also here in Las Vegas is Bali Hai, designed by Schmidt and Curley.  This course is right on the strip and is also on about 115 acres with about 70 acres of turf.  Those are a few I know of, what other courses and designers are popular for this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Slag_Bandoon

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2002, 02:55:53 AM »
I thought long and hard and came up with only niners.  This is a very good question but one that might not get voluminous replies as the tight ones never get the press they deserve.  
  I am in the midst of designing a fantasy niner in my neck of the woods that wouldn't get a single star in the Michelin grade but in my 'starving artist' world it's a masterpiece.  
  
  I can mention Cullen (18 holer) in Scotland but the course is mostly natural with screamingly dangerous and litigious disaster everywhere.  It's serious sniper environment.  Very cool.  Whoever designed it was a sadist/hedonist.  Probably an ex-military general or torture black-masker.  
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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bm

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2002, 05:47:45 AM »
One of the best would be Kingston Heath which is on around 120 acres. UNlike the Perry Dye courses - which would generally feel cramped - you get so sense of the golf course being crammed in at KH.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2002, 10:36:57 AM »
According to Bradley Klein and Ron Whitten, the genius of
Donald Ross is exhibited in his routing of Beverly in Chicago.

Two rectangles with returning nines with only two holes going
concurrently in the same direction.  

This is exactly a reason that Ross was a genius!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2002, 10:45:45 AM »
There is a former nine holer here in Aztec, Nm. called Hidden Valley, which has recently become an 18. The 96 acres was redesigned by the former head pro at the San Juan country club, Ken Lacey.

Needless to say the course is somewhat goofy. But a certain poetic license should be allowed. There are times when one doesn't know which green to shoot for. Or, where to go for the next hole.

But with all this confusion the shot values are diverse and demanding. With greens that are small and severly undulated one can't help but think about TOC while traversing the terrain. Another "scottish-like" feel are the semi blind one shoters.

All in all it is an acquired taste and fun. Plus most of the average golfers HATE it, which keeps the volume down.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Mingay

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2002, 11:57:28 AM »
My friend Paul Richards brings up Donald Ross above. Ross must be the all-time career leader in doing brilliant routings on tiny properties.

Both Ross courses in my hometown, Windsor, Ontario (Essex and Roseland) are case-studies is routing 18-holes on somewhat awkward rectangular tracts. Like at Beverly, no more than two consecutive holes play in the same direction on either course -- and that only happens once in each case.  

You can also add a large number of Ross' works in New England to the list of brilliant routings on same properties, including Wannamoisett. And how about his original routing at Inverness in Toledo!

As for someone doing as well today with smaller properties, I don't know of anyone?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2002, 10:46:07 PM »
Royal Worlington is famous for this quality.  

Several cross over shots, but it never feels cramped; quite the opposite in fact.  Wonder how many acres there?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2002, 11:00:23 PM »
Jeff,
As you mentioned, Ross was the king of routing.  Another
great example of how Ross could make a very tight piece of property into a very interesting course is Cherokee CC in Knoxville, TN.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Cirba

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2002, 11:17:16 PM »
Merion East, on 125 acres including the clubhouse and parking lot has to be the greatest course on limited property.

As far as modern courses, anyone know the total acreage of Rustic Canyon, less parking and driving range?  It's long and narrow, so I hesitate to hazard a guess.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Huntley

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2002, 11:17:46 PM »
The Dallas C.C. is on a little more than one hundred acres. Recently renovated by Moorish it is a tribute to what can be done on limited acreage.
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2002, 12:02:46 PM »
While I wholeheartedly agree that Ross was the king of routing on small properties, Mr. Gunning's question asked who TODAY is the best at routing on small properties.

The question is more difficult today, because so many course are housing developments.  I find it difficult to think of new courses that aren't housing developments.  I also find it difficult thinking of new courses with many parallel holes to even be compact.  I'm at a loss.

Though most of his courses are big and bold, Mike Strantz' first design, Caledonia is on a very small property.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John Foley

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2002, 12:47:07 PM »
Brian Silva did a course in Southern New Hampshire called Passaconaway which is routed very well on an extremly small property. A few parallel holes which played tough we're the only downside.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Integrity in the moment of choice

ted janeczek

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2002, 01:49:06 PM »
naples national, a reasonably well regarded layout is done on 105 acres, as much of the original land was "donated", i believe for environmental and political(permitting?)  purposes. not a bad track, nonetheless, although a bit awkward routing in spots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Grossman

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2002, 02:24:15 PM »
I agree with Scott about Caledonia.  If you look at the Aerial (couple of months ago), it is amazing how Strantz shoehorned the course in there.  However, it is equally amazing how you feel isolated on the course and there is plenty of room to play.

On the bad side, has anyone else played Bartley C. Cavanaugh in Sacramento?  I think is a Perry Dye and it is SMALL - built on 91 acres.  It is the only place I have ever seen a YIELD sign on a cart path and also the only place I have ever hit another golfer with a ball.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2002, 08:03:41 PM »
Scott:

Excellent point.  Therefore, I change my statement to say that if Donald Ross was still alive today, he would still be the best at routing a golf course.
 ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2002, 08:13:34 PM »
There are many times that when presented with a small site the architect should "Just say No!". Such is the case with a new Arthur Hills design outside of Frederick, MD - Maryland National GC. The course is crammed into 123 acres of wetlands and environmental areas. Do not forget your hardhat! Holes 7,8,9 & 10 are a shooting gallery. By the way I forgot to mention the 75 feet of elevation change and the cart paths crossing numerous fairways. Bring a bucket of ball! I do not understand why Hills would take on such a project. He seems to have plenty of work. The property is beautiful and very dramatic. It would have made a wonderful 9-hole course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2002, 09:16:41 PM »
Rob,

Should I take it off my "places to play" list?  

Actually, given my morbid propensity for seeing golf courses of all kinds, even ones that shouldn't have been built, I'm probably more fascinated than ever.  I think I need a therapist. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2002, 09:46:34 PM »
Mike,

I keep telling my wife that GCA is my therapist !! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2002, 10:13:32 PM »
Mike;

Whatever works! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2002, 02:12:36 AM »
I have played Bartley C. Cavanaugh in Sacramento.  I couldn't believe it.  I assume there have been numerous accidents there.  But I don't think it is a Perry Dye design.  He markets his ability to design on tight sights like Cypress GC in Los Alamitos, CA, but I think someone else gets the blame for Cavanaugh.
I agree, Caledonia, the Strantz design in Myrtle Beach, does not feel trapped on that small piece of property, except for that little par 3 by the clubhouse.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2002, 03:22:28 AM »
Lynn,

It is indeed a Perry Dye creation, circa 1995.  I believe it is on only 90 acres, due to a property squabble with the neighboring land-owner.  With that additional acreage a most reasonable course would have been possible.

While I was not involved myself, others in my former firm did work on that very project before it migrated to Dye.  My former firm ultimately determined that it was a bad idea waiting to happen.  In these instances, why can't we be happy with the damn bestest 5,000 yard course in the county?  Why?
Do we blame Lewis & Clarke?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2002, 01:17:25 PM »
Mike Cirba

Take MD National off and put Musket Ridge (the course next door) on. A very playable well conditioned Joe Lee (Tim Freeland) design. Musket made use of a larger property better suited for a golf course.

On the way down to MD be sure to stop by Rolling Road CC. RRCC is a Willie Park design situated on 95 acres. Dangerous but still enjoyable! Park's best know design is probably Olympia Fields North (2003 US Open site).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2002, 01:23:18 PM »
I'd say Maidstone is more well-known than O-Fields amongst U.S. Park designs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2002, 01:25:18 PM »
Rob,

Thanks for the heads up about Rolling Road.  I'll try to check it out.  

Actually, both Musket Ridge and Maryland Natl are on my playlist.  I hadn't realized they are so close, so I may try to do a 36 hole day there.

As far as Willie Park, he is also largely responsible for the course at Maidstone, as well as one run by a contributor here, Archie Struthers, called Greate Bay CC in NJ that's a fun place. :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Routings On Small Pieces Of Property
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2002, 01:30:19 PM »
Rolling Road is a stone's throw from where my grandmother and great aunt lived for many years until they passed away a few years ago.  Never played it.  It's private.  Surrounded by road on all sides I think, so watch out when driving by.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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