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Matt_Ward

Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« on: June 04, 2008, 01:14:43 PM »
Be curious to know if people have used modern technology (e.g. launch monitors) for their overall fitting needs in selecting drivers and quite possibly other clubs.

Quick question - was it really helpful and has it resulted in a driver that out performs what you did previously ?

Thanks ...

Chris Garrett

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 01:26:38 PM »
Matt,

Speaking as a former Assistant Pro, launch monitors can be a helpful aid in the process of fitting.  In my few years in the business, launch monitors and video were two helpful and convincing factors in both fitting and teaching.  Golfers, for better or worse, tend to have egos.  These egos had 20 handicappers wanting to hit 8.5 degree drivers with a stiff shaft.  The launch monitor helped to show them which club/combo they were indeed hitting further.  Of course, it is important to take into account the psychology of golfers and realize that if they don't like the way the shot looks coming off the club, they simply won't hit it well.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 01:32:44 PM »
I have tested on launch monitors but never actually purchased anything on the basis of the test, mainly because my club pro doesn't have a launch monitor and I prefer to buy from him out of a sense of loyalty.  Frankly, I think this has cost me money because it's taken a bit of on course trial and error to find the right shaft for my driver and 3-wood.  I changed drivers in successive years to get the right shaft.  Had I used a launch monitor to make the initial purchase, I might have found the right shaft immediately.  Even now, I'm not 100% sure that my shaft/head combo is optimal, but at least I've gotten by ball flight lower with the current mix.

Had I been able to attend one of the demo days at my club I would have been able to use the available technology effectively.  

Mike Sweeney

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 01:35:42 PM »
I go back and forth. I did one indoors, so that was uncomfortable.

I think I would rather hit them on the course after an outdoor fitting session in a perfect world.

I am currently playing a non-fitted driver.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 01:43:19 PM »
I hit on launch monitor for the first time at one of club's recent demo days. I found it very interesting. I tested a Titleist D2 driver with a YS-Q stiff shaft that was 75 grams - very similar to my current Speeder shaft in my 983K. Both the driver I tested and my current driver had 9.5 degrees of loft. My swing speed and launch angle were very consistent with the D2 at 107 mph and 9.5-10 degrees. The 983K was consistently 108 mph and 9.5-10 degrees launch angle. This convinced me to buy a D2 with 10.5 degrees of loft to get my launch angle in the 12-16 degree optimum range.

As a sidenote - some buddies were at the range with me that and after a few swings with demo driver told me try and hit one really hard. My swing speed dropped to 103 mph. There's a lesson there somewhere.

Chris Garrett

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 02:00:50 PM »
Steve,

Your swing speed dropped because hitting the ball "hard" is not the same as hitting the ball long.  When you swung "hard," you most likely tensed up your muscles and took the rhythm out.  Next time you want to hit the ball long and show off, loosen your grip and bring the the club back low and slow.  This will keep your muscles relaxed and give you a bigger arc, which equals faster swing speed.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 02:15:31 PM »
No question that it helped me. A former assistant of mine is one of Titleist's top fitters (based in Ypsilanti, MI), and uses the TrackMan and other devices. The first time was about 4 years ago, and it showed me that my launch conditions were so unusual (VERY low spin) that it explained why I'd always driven the ball poorly with improperly fit drivers. After putting the right club in my hands, my first round with it I hit 14 fairways (at Point O'Woods of all places, EXTREMELY narrow). I now drive the ball better than I ever have, and go back to him annually to make sure my driver is still the best fit for me.

Another buddy of mine is the head of the custom fitting department for Titleist. When he heard how low my spin rate was that first time, he couldn't believe it. He'd never heard of a "good" player with such a low rate, and he'd been around launch monitors since they started being used. He said that ANY sidespin would be disastrous, and he was right!

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 02:22:40 PM »
Steve,

Your swing speed dropped because hitting the ball "hard" is not the same as hitting the ball long.  When you swung "hard," you most likely tensed up your muscles and took the rhythm out.  Next time you want to hit the ball long and show off, loosen your grip and bring the the club back low and slow.  This will keep your muscles relaxed and give you a bigger arc, which equals faster swing speed.

I think I should have included a few of these -  ;) ;) ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 02:42:14 PM »
Matt,
Personally, no, although I  know others who have.
 
I would neither persuade nor dissuade someone from trying one, but I can't see how much benefit someone with an 'unoptimized' swing could possibly get out of the effort.

Sometimes I think that 'state of the art' ruins the art.



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2008, 03:59:58 PM »
Matt - My last 3 drivers have been fitted as have my last 2 sets of irons.  I don't know if they have caused me to play better but it seems to have taken the FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt) out of the equation.  Thinking you have the right equipment takes one level of distraction away. 

Ben Crenshaw said "A golfers mind is a fragile thing!"  I definately agree with him.

DEAN
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2008, 04:45:13 PM »
I for one was very surprised to see that the stock shaft worked much better for me than any of the 'exotics'.  Not only did my new driver perform better, I saved a few bucks (always important for a German) by not going with an upgraded shaft.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2008, 04:53:31 PM »
Launch monitors aren't all the same.
Some are better than others.
If you can find a trackman and get fit by someone who knows what he/she is doing, you will be amazed at the amount of difference properly fit equipment can make.

The BSG guys are top notch.
While you certainly don't need my help to reach out to them, if you'd like an introduction I'll be glad to put you in touch.

-Ted

Matt_Ward

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2008, 04:57:24 PM »
I'm just surprised major equipment companies continue to push drivers with 8.5 and 9.5 lofts when the reality for most players -- especially men -- is to use lofts that are a bit higher -- say 10.5 or even higher.

JohnV

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2008, 05:09:27 PM »
I got on one two years ago and found that I put a lot of hook spin on the ball with my current drivers.  We found a driver with an open face and the ball started rotating much straighter.  It definitely helped my game for a while.  Right now my swing is so messed up nothing seems to help. >:(

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2008, 05:15:20 PM »
I'm just surprised major equipment companies continue to push drivers with 8.5 and 9.5 lofts when the reality for most players -- especially men -- is to use lofts that are a bit higher -- say 10.5 or even higher.

Matt

Just because it says 8.5 degrees or 9.5 degrees doesn't mean it's 8.5 or 9.5 loft.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 06:00:29 PM »
I'm just surprised major equipment companies continue to push drivers with 8.5 and 9.5 lofts when the reality for most players -- especially men -- is to use lofts that are a bit higher -- say 10.5 or even higher.

Not me. I hit a 7.5 degree Ping on a high trajectory (carry 260-280 depending on the weather and elevation). Anything with greater loft costs me many, many yards.

The general trend with manufacturers is certainly towards higher lofts and closed face angles. They hook like crazy on me.

I don't think manufacturers push lower lofts as you say, but I'm glad they provide them for those in need. I've been told that driver lofts are commonly a degree off from what the club actually states anyways...  ::)
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 06:02:37 PM »
Matt, my suggestion to you is to not get fit until you get older and lose 30-40 yards.  If you optimize now, you'll have nowhere to go but down.  I'm saving optimization for the day I need it.  If you're plenty long enough today as it is, what's the point?

Sadly enough, my few rounds this year reminded me of this theory you told me at Lawsonia last year, Dave.  I'm afraid I may have to resort to some tech to regain what's been lost between this season and the last.

Cheers,
Brad

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 06:21:31 PM »
I'm just surprised major equipment companies continue to push drivers with 8.5 and 9.5 lofts when the reality for most players -- especially men -- is to use lofts that are a bit higher -- say 10.5 or even higher.

Matt - at the Dixie Cup a couple of years ago, we had one of our playing companions hit Laura's 14 degree driver with a 55g L-flex shaft (men's length).  This guy was probably a 5-6 handicapper.  He hit a really nice tee ball with his 9 degree Ping.  He then hit Laura's Ping G5L and we couldn't stop laughing at the height he hit it.

But you know what - the G5L outdistanced his 9 degree by about 20 yards.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 07:11:50 PM »
I've been fitted on LM's for a driver, and the fitting is as good as the fitter.  Unlike outdoors, the fitter has to really pay attention to not only your good shots, but the bad ones and the so-so ones as well. 

Outdoors, fitters tend to use the fitting to lessen (if not correct) your default flaws.  I think indoors the temptation is to look for the great numbers instead of the average and bad numbers to arrive at a mean.  If you aren't careful, you end up with a driver that has too little loft and too stiff a shaft.

All that said, I would NEVER do an iron fitting indoors.  Way, way too much at stake for those of us who keep iron for years and years.

Also, the really cool fitting stuff is just now hitting the retail market.  I did a fitting for my first set of new irons in 8 years with the new interchangeable shafts and heads from Ping.  It was a ton of fun, and very confidence-inspiring that we had the right combo after an hour and 15 minutes hitting various clubs.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 11:31:53 PM »
Matt,

I have just been through this process for a new driver.  As others have mentioned I found that LM's vary in their readings from one brand to another.  Particularly in the area on spin rate.  I'm talking about 40-50% difference.

I found out when I bought my irons a few years ago that most fitters, even those that purport to be good, have no idea what they are talking about.  You will in essence pay for bad information if you are not careful.  For the driver I really researched who here in the Dallas area knew what they were going.  The proper shaft type with the right weight, length, kick point and stiffness frequency can make a big difference.

The thing is they really have to have a strong knowledge of a wide range of shafts and which 2-4 are best for your swing characteristics.  This is not a common trait amongst fitters.  From there you can narrow it down to the best feel/fit for you.  As you would know most stock shafts, even if they feel good, are just not likely to be the best fit.  They may say R,S or X on the shaft but stock shafts just are not subjected to a stringent quality control process, and as a result probably are not really R,S or X.  Even if they were the chance that everything else is a match is minimal.

I'm a 5.7 and was hitting drives consistently in the 240-265 range.  I would estimate the new set up gave me 10 extra yards, and the changes the fitter/teacher made in my swing during that fitting session added another 10.  I'm very happy I went through the process.  The LM info is one thing, but having a qualified and commited fitter that knows what to do with the data and has product knowledge is another.  Also someone that will stand behind their work (and product if you buy from them).

This list might be a good starting point.  There were 2 in the DFW area.  I chose the closer one location wise and was happy.  I have heard nothing but good things about the other group.  So 2 for 2 on a small sample size.

http://www.reshafting.com/Top%20100%20ClubFitters.pdf



Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2008, 12:24:11 AM »
Means nothing...unless you want 20 more yards in the air from your driver, and 10-15 to your irons...and straighter.

My guy is David Butler in Half Moon Bay. That's what he gave me two years ago...I am now three or four clubs shorter into the same greens, all by his working the load factors and the numbers.

We worked again, yesterday, and found ten more yards off the tee, if I want them. He combined a prototype Graffaloy shaft with a TM Burner TPS head, and damn....265 in the air? Believe it...a 13 degree launch angle with a spin rate of 1650, and just 90 rpm's of side rotation. In other words...dead straight. And I am 54 years old.

Then again, this guy is an artist.

So no. Launch monitors are worthless...



« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 12:28:43 AM by Wayne_Freedman »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 01:21:30 AM »
Matt, my suggestion to you is to not get fit until you get older and lose 30-40 yards.  If you optimize now, you'll have nowhere to go but down.  I'm saving optimization for the day I need it.  If you're plenty long enough today as it is, what's the point?

Sadly enough, my few rounds this year reminded me of this theory you told me at Lawsonia last year, Dave.  I'm afraid I may have to resort to some tech to regain what's been lost between this season and the last.

Cheers,
Brad


Brad,  you're a few years younger than me so don't go claiming you are getting old and losing distance just yet!  Even a swing as smooth as yours has to get out of kilter once in a while.

At the start of this season my driving was as good as it as ever been, I was getting several 300 yard carries per round without wind or terrain aid with temps in the low 60s, and I was never more than a few yards off the fairway on any drive.  I felt like it would just go wherever I aimed it without worry, which is certainly a foreign idea to me with a driver in my hand.  Of course my short game still had several layers of winter rust on it.  In the past month my drives have lost 20-30 yards and become more wild than usual (like 50-60 yards offline kinda wild) but my short game started coming back.  I didn't age, its just that my swing got all out of whack like it does all too often.

I'll bet you have been making more putts this year since you've had problems off the tee, its just those evil golf gods making mischief again :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 01:25:40 AM »
Launch monitors are worthless.

Unless you have the right person working it.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2008, 01:36:54 AM »
So as for launch monitors, I haven't been really truly fitted by one but I did do a test a couple years ago on a demo day.  Unfortunately I didn't have my own driver with me so I couldn't compare with my own club, but the gist of my test was that I was right on in my belief that lower lofts work better for me (they said about 8* would be right)  It also resulted in the somewhat surprising (to me, at least) suggestion that I was using shafts that were far too light at 58g, and I should be swinging more like 75-80g shafts as a way to bring my overly high spin rate down a bit.

I do want to go to a place that specializes in this type of swing analysis that would let me swing a variety of brands of driver to see the different results and try various shafts, since I'm guessing the guy who tested me on the demo day is more of a salesman than a real clubfitter.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Chris Garrett

Re: Launch Monitors / Effectiveness ?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2008, 09:55:14 AM »
If anyone is serious about a "proper" fit, go out to the Titleist folks in California.  It costs thousands, but they know more about this stuff than anyone.  For those in the NJ/NY area, Steve Wilson at Essex County Country Club is very good with the Titleist system.  He actually taught the system to PGA professionals when I was in the business, and may still do so.

Lets clear up a distinction with launch monitors if we can.  Launch monitors in and of themselves are not meant to be a club fitting system.  They are meant to be used as part of the club fitting process.

The fitting process should look at grip size, shaft length, shaft characteristics, lie angle, and loft (and offset if needed).  The fitter should use a fitting cart, lie tape, lie board, face tape, and other tools to take one through grip size, shaft length, and lie angle.

Shaft length is a product of:

1) Height - There is not one stop shopping when golfers can be 5'5" or 6'5".
2) Posture - Do you stand ideally, tall, or bent over.
3) Swing characteristics - How you approach impact (across the top, steep, dip, etc)

Lie Angle is mainly determined by your particular swing.  Someone like Raymond Floyd needs a much more upright club than someone like Ben Hogan did.  Each swing is unique, and lie angle is vitally important so that the bottom of the club meets flush with the turf each time.

Grip size is too often overlooked and I don't understand why.  Grip size is important not only for comfort, but also in determining how fast one can turn the club over.  Think of swing a golf club and then think of swing s thick handled wooden baseball bat.  It is much easier to "turn over" the golf club than it is to turn over the baseball bat.  If you fade the ball more than you would like, a smaller grip can help you turn the club over easier.  The opposite is also true... if you draw or hook the ball, a bigger grip can make it tougher to turn the club over through impact.

The launch monitor (never do this inside - there are psychological effects of not seeing your ball flight that will throw you off) is meant to maximize the combination of loft and shaft to give one the ideal ball flight.  In regards to irons, scratch golfers can benefit from an analysis of their irons.  Other players will get tested simply to determine the flex of the shaft.  The launch monitor gets most of its use in the fitting of woods.  If anyone gets exposed to a launch monitor during a club fitting, ask the fitter how the golf ball choice factors in to all of the numbers that he is looking at.  That will stump the majority of them - it is the X factor that they rarely think about or consider.  Many folks are cautious or skeptical about the findings of launch monitors.  Often, it says that their shaft of too stiff or that the loft of their driver is too low.  Lets face it, many golfers have an image of the "ideal" ball flight, and it is often about as accurate as their image of their own swing.  If you aren't convinced of the launch monitor findings, take the clubs onto the course and test them there. 

Club fitting as a whole is not meant to increase the distance on your best shots.  If that happens solely because of the fitting, you've got yourself a nice bonus.  Fitting is meant to increase the consistency in your game with the swing that you already have.  In that regard, your average distance will probably improve as you should be more consistent.  Please also recognize, if your swing isn't consistent and repeatable, you won't benefit nearly as much from the fitting.  One warning for those who get fit... there are folks out there who will try to give you a lesson during the fitting and fit you on your "new" swing.  I saw a company that encouraged everyone to stand taller and then fit them based on those specs.  Most of these folks ended up sending their clubs back because they were fit on a swing that wasn't theirs.  A good fitter will be fair and unbiased and fit you for the swing that you have.