[Slag_Bandoon]

  Why has it taken so long for links style to catch on in America?  There are scads of golf courses but a small percentage of links or links style courses.  Virtually every pilgrim going to Scotland or Ireland plays the links, not the parklands, heathland or moorland courses, so why has it taken decades for the links style of architecture to take hold in America?  It's become the buzz of the industry and I don't see it tailing off for some time, if ever.  Is it because the golfing community is maturing or tiring of the status quo of architecture?  Are they just merely chasing a trend?  Is it the evolution of generations of designers finding home in the mystery of the land?  

[A_Clay_Man]

Slag- This is a topic which is near and dear to my heart. Since I can remember, the justification for not building Links courses has and will always be, available land. This is an argument I have had trouble believing, but with property values going ballistic, ocean front is getting prohibitive and so the argument is getting more plauseable.

Greg Ramsey's Barndooggle dunes is proof that the land is still there, just becoming more and more remote.

[Derek_Duncan]

Slag,

First of all, in my corner of the world I don't see it catching on at all.  Just the opposite.  I hear it here, but I sure don't see it.

We should decide what exactly you mean by links and links style?  If by links style you mean what I think you mean, in a nutshell, fast and firm and laid bare to wind, then I don't think American golfers want that.  My experience is that the majority of American golfers - and it very well may be an overwhelming majority - want just the opposite in a golf course: soft and green.  Probably with trees too.  Conditioning of the course is typically the number one priority when the average American golfer is rating or evaluating the merits of a course.  My guess is that even those who have traveled to the links courses of the British Isles, appreciate the golf as they may, don't want to play it everyday.

And if you mean by links style (and I don't think you do) any course with few or no trees that some misguided marketing director has termed "Scottish links style course" because he or she can't figure out any other way to sell it, well there's already no shortage of those.

[Slag Bandoon]

 I am talking about those mediocre links-style courses as well as the real ones.  Even if they are not world class the exposure they give as to the open feel of a links course is at least a taster for those that may never get the gumption up to sail the jet stream to The Isles.  
  I live in the Northwest of America, where most everything was in the trees up until a few years ago.  (Few exceptions.)  

  My club (Tri-Mountain in Ridgefield, Washington) is one of those wannabe links courses which has too much water and is only fast in the fairways a few months out of the year, has bunkers at fairway edges like RTJ Sr. was inhabiting the archie's mind (William Robinson) but I'll take it over most of the tree-lined courses in the area.    

  We have a new course just opened in April by Jacobsen/Hardy that has elements of links golf and then heads into stands of mature trees.  It's a blend of styles that may bother some but I think it's interesting display of variety.  It won't win any awards but it's affordable ($34-$39).   Even if it's not perfection for the puritanical links devotee or bunker gurus, it gives us another choice and is distinctive from other courses in the area.  To compare hilly parkland to (admittedly poor soils) linksy on the same course is rare.  I do see some room for improvement there but it's fun golf.  

  We get a lot of travellers to our club at Tr-Mountain GC and I do get the feeling that they really like the course but they are always put off by the winds.  "Damn it's windy here"  (It's not that windy really, they're just not used to playing in it.)  That's their only gripe (and that they keep three putting    )

 I have played in Ireland and Scotland (and have come real close to selling everything I own to live in the abandoned barracks at Machrihanish,) so I do have some feel (albeit from the eyes of a neophyte course critic and 20 handicapper) for what great links can be but still...  

  I get the feeling that people exposed are understanding the features and benefits of links style a bit more, even if it is on a less-than-great layout.  This can't be bad can it?

  

  

[ed_getka]

Slag,
 I would say links haven't caught on here with the golfing masses since there isn't one set shot to play over and over. Find the yardage and pick the club that goes the distance and hit it is what most golfers seem to want. Links golf is all about using your imagination and creating shots and since the average handicap golfer has enough trouble playing with their one swing, they certainly would have trouble inventing variations. For me the best part of golf is creating shots to extricate myself from the mess I put myself in with my non-repeating swing.

Most times I play a course that is firm/fast and the ball lands on the green and then bounces through the average golfer will complain that the course sucks or is unfair. Rarely do they seem to consider they simply played the wrong type of shot.

[Joe Hancock]

Ed, when you said:

"Most times I play a course that is firm/fast and the ball lands on the green and then bounces through the average golfer will complain that the course sucks or is unfair. Rarely do they seem to consider they simply played the wrong type of shot. "
I had the thought that those sentiments of unfairness would represent something like 95% of US golfers. Similarly, isn't it something like 95% of the US golfers are 10 handicappers or higher? I doubt that the golfers are one in the same, though. I've heard a lot of low handicappers moan about hard greens and unfair blah blah blah, even equating it to a sucky golf course, like you eluded to. You've once again affirmed to me that there are many who play golf, but very few "golfers".

[Slag Bandoon]

 So, 5% are getting it?  Cool. There's cause for optimism.  Maybe, just maybe we can bring that to 10% within our lifetime.  We're on a roll!  An undeniable juggernaut of golfing philosophy!    

[Joe Hancock]

Slag,

I was guesing, of course. In actuality it is probably closer to 4%, so keeping pushing the doctrine.

Joe

[ed_getka]

Joe,
 One of the great things about GCA is that everyone I've met has been a "golfer" and is really in tune with the soul of the game. My brother is way better at golf than me and yet he is not attuned to the spirit of the game and only derives pleasure from shooting a low score.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe,
I've heard a lot of complaints about firm greens, but never a compliment. Lots of compliments about soft greens, but never a complaint. Anything over 1% is generous, IMHO.

Don

p.s. Raining here for the first time in over 100 days, guess I'll get some compliments tomorrow.

[John_Conley]

I was watching something on 60 MINUTES tonight about a protected area (The NE portion of Alaska) that supposedly has oil.  They showed "Fly-bys" of the area in the dead of winter and again in the summer.  While remote, the land appeared to have thin green grass.  I assume the ground was firm.  It got me thinking...

Naturally treeless, the best aspect from a design standpoint is that there is no scarcity of land and a routing can go hither and yon like they did at Sand Hills.

(Not more than an hour after I saw this on TV I read that Mike Keiser is considering a site in Scotland 2 hours North of Dornoch.  Borderline Arctic.)

[Slag_Bandoon]

John,  Yep, it's very firm, it's called permafrost.  Actually, the tundra is fascinating in that it never really dries out because as the ground does thaw, it saturates itself with moisture.  Mosquitos love it.  

  I suppose in the winter the ball would roll a long way without snow and if it didn't shatter.

   Here's an Alaskan 'Lame Joke du jour' :  A feller in Alaska never loses his girlfriend, he just loses his turn. (oy)

  What's the deal?  We started with 5% then to 4% now we're at 1%.  Sounds like my %#@&ing 401K!

  On Rocanante!  

[DMoriarty]

I am not sure we should be so quick to dismiss the golfing public's willingness to embrace links golf.

Anecdotal evidence:  While I am no expert, I would characterize Rustic Canyon as a links course.  This Saturday morning at 5:45 a.m, there were about 20 cars lined up outside the gate at Rustic, waiting to try to make a tee time for next Saturday (they start giving out the times at 6 a.m.)  Between the walk-ups and the phone calls, all the times (7 am to 2 pm) were gone in the first 15 minutes (it would have been alot quicker but they only had one guy working the phones and the counter.)  This at a course with no clubhouse, no pro shop, and no plumbing.  

Certainly, this is in part due to the low price.  But I hope that the overwhelming demand is also indication that the golfing public is willing to embrace an authentic links course.  

[Roger]

Every time you hear of a links course being built in the UK and Ireland, it is hearalded as the last one that will ever be built. The problem over here is not that the property is too expensive, as a lot of this land is remote, but that there are environmental concerns and often rights of access to the public. Old Head, which calls itself links, had a lot of trouble, and still does, as people want to access this acient and beautiful piece of land, which has historical rights of access. The feeling is that when these places are turned into a golf club, they are taken away from the people. In fact, citing Old Head again, Irish people can't even become members.

Development of Doonbeg was held up because of a rare species of snail discovered living in the dunes.

...

[rhobbs]

John,

Where did you read that Keiser was considering a site near Dornoch?  I had heard from a caddie at The Dunes Club that he had purchased land in Scotland.  But, I had yet to see that mentioned anywhere until now.  Just curious?

Russ

[Paul Richards]

rhobbs:

There's an article I read today that mentioned Keiser found
1500 acres for sale, 2 hours north of Dornoch, on a family
vacation.

It also mentioned that his eventual plans for Bandon/Pacific
Dunes will be 5 or 6 courses, with all but one public.

[rhobbs]

was this on the web or in the newspaper?

Thanks.

[Paul Richards]

rhobbs:

Seeing as how I read Golfweek, GolfWorld, and Golf Digest today, and then gave them to others to read, I can't recall which publication I saw it in!   And since I gave them away already, I can't even go back and check on it.  Sorry.

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul;

It was "Golfweek", of course.  

Evidently, Bill Coore is looking at the 1500 acres with Mr. Keiser.  

[rhobbs]

Great. Thanks for the info.

[Paul Richards]

Mike:

Thanks for clarifying that.  I figured it was Golfweek, but
didn't want to misidentify it!

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Bandon + Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills,  Shinnecock, all pinnacles of American links have been given much and fine coverage by design pundits and writers.  Is this appreciation trickling down to the less travelled to effect future designs?  I think there's a growing curiosity for them, at least.  I have found that links style isn't really explained or marketed in any detail in clubhouses or scorecards beyond the obvious.  Why is the most magical of syles left without a staunch army of vocal supporters? Or is it changing?  I like what I hear from DMoriarty about Rustic Canyon bringing in the troopers.  

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