[Tim Kratz]

Just to dispel a few "rumors" from someone who really does know what has gone on at Dismal River.  First, as others already have pointed out, a significant change was made to only one hole on the course, number 13.  On that hole, the green was moved about 50 yards closer to the tee.  It made an extremely tough hole quite a bit easier.  It's still a wonderful hole -- very treacherous if you miss the green to the left, but now you are hitting your approach with a much shorter iron and there also is a better chance to run the ball up the right side of the green. The other changes involved some minor re-grading of the slope on several greens.  The re-grading changes were subtle, and, frankly, I did not even notice notice the changes after they were made.     

Second, the project was not sold at a loss, nor was it sold in its entirety by the original ownership group.   

I realize, for some reason, Dismal has become a bit of a whipping boy for many on this site.  I'll readily admit I do have a dog (a small one) in this fight, but I also consider myself an honest and reasonable evaluator of golf courses.  I've played Sand Hills more than 50 times, and I love that course dearly.  I've played Pacific Dunes many times and put it in my personal top four.  I love Cruden Bay and Royal Dornoch.  In my opinion, Dismal is right there the with these other wonderful courses.  I've posted in detail in the past what I love about the course, and I won't bore you with those details again.  (Check the archive if you wish).   But I will continue to dispel false statements and stick up for what I believe in. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Well said, Tim.  You should always stick up for what you belive in.

[tlavin]

Tim,

Your knowledgeable opinion is certainly welcome.  I am comparing my experience at Sand Hills to the photographs of DR that I've seen and it's hard to see anything worthy of comparison to my eye.  The DR photos make it look like a Phoenix area golf course, which would be a waste of the property as far as I'm concerned.

[Michael Dugger]

I think why people bang on Dismal is because it seems the course was not really built in harmony with the existing terrain.

It's kinda like Nicklaus imposed his will upon the property, forcing his "style" on a parcel of sand dune country which really needed something different put upon it.

And surprise surprise, it's not working first go around.

[George Pazin]

Here's some other DR threads:

My Day at Dismal River (by Matt Ward)

Ballyneal and Dismal River (by cary lichtenstein)

Dismal River

[Chip Gaskins]

again, not trying to offend anyone, after rereading my thread about 10 times all i see that possibly could offend is where i state 14 holes had to be "rebuilt".  maybe i should have said "reworked".  i got most of my info from a member there, so i assumed when i was told fairways had to be raised and blind shots cut down a little that it was a true statement

no photoshopping on the pics...

the greens at DR did have a fair amount of winter kill.  not sure if the grass on the greens are the same type as Sand Hills?  Sand Hills and Dismal River are 7 miles apart the way the crow flies.  I talked to the Super at Sand Hills and he said they had a pretty tough winter (though their greens were perfect)

our forecaddie was a young guy from North Platte.  he stayed on site in club provided housing.

[DMoriarty]

I hate to say this, but those two fairways look photo-shopped into the picture to me.

Does anybody know whether this freeze burn from the winter will be all fixed by, oh, say, the first weekend in August?

It seems like one of the problems at courses like this is getting the course to blend in with the surrounds.  I'm judging solely on these and other photos so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but I dont think they have the blending figured out here at all.   I am not sure what the purpose of the dark rough around the edges serves except to insulate the course from the surrounds, but why build a course in a landscape like this if you are going to insulate it from the landscape?   

Similarly, some of the bunkers (especially greenside bunkers) in these and other photos look to be deliberately sequestered from the actual course by the rough buffer.  Here for example . . .

 

more pics and write up at www.golfcourseclassics.com

I know MacKenzie incorporated some bunkers into hillsides for visual effect, especially where the bunker was largely natural (13 at cypress for example) but I don't think he buffered them off.  Doesn't this seem almost an implicit acknowledgment that that the bunkers are purely for show? 

For the record, while I loved Sand Hills but in my very limited exposure I was not entirely thrilled with their transitions into the native either.  The transitions looked much more natural than in the photos above, but the irrigation apparently extended into the native (maybe just by wind?) so while the look was better the first bit of native was incredibly lush and thick compared to the native just a few yards away, so a bigger miss was often rewarded with a much better and more natural lie.  Fortunately for me I tend to miss by a lot.

In my limited exposure, Ballyneal seemed to have the better transitions, with the golf course sort of dying out into the native, and the native maintaining its true character right into the course.  But I saw the course pretty early in the process and I hope they are able to maintain this as the course matures.

Again my comments on all these courses should be taken with a grain of salt because I have seen one (DR) only in photos and the other two only for a couple of days each.   I'd be glad to hear any alternative views others may have on any or all.

[Mike Hendren]

Chip, next time you drop a grenade in a room I would advise fully closing the door before you leave. You're not a "big confused" but rather just got busted.   In my opinion, your initial post was hardly frank commentary: at best it was an attempt to be cute and at worst and cheap shot - particularly the ROI dig.  I doubt there's a legitimate architect participating here that hasn't been involved in a total debacle from an ROI perspective.  Also, anybody who builds a 17 miles road to a golf course is as serious as two cats in a sandbox, in case yours was not a rhetorical question. 

Tom Doak,  surely you don't really, truly, honestly believe I'm being politically correct, do you?

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

David Moriarty,

Your well reasoned and articulated post no. 32 is exemplary. 

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Brad Swanson]

"serious as two cats in a sandbox"

Mike,
   Please explain this one.  This simpleton cheesehead laughed out loud at that saying without having a clue about the meaning/reference.  Thanks.

Cheers,
Brad

[Jim Colton]

Are they still planning on building a 2nd course at DR?

[Jordan Caron]

Chip,

After I posted some incorrect information about a Club a week ago, it makes a lot of sense to be certain that when you post on a forum (as tiny of a community as it is) of this nature you're 100% accurate.  Rick Shefchik is bang on with his comments about good manners.

[Chip Gaskins]

uggg.

you guys kill me with this good manners stuff...again, i got my information from a MEMBER!

i post the best pictures i have of the course and make a few remarks (from the member) about course rework and now somehow i have bad manners...

and as far as i can tell my statements have all been correct.  we may split hairs over "rebuild" or "rework" but according to this thread rework has been done on many holes and greens.

i didn't say the course sucked, i didn't say it was in terrible condition, i didn't say the folks running the place we rude, all i said (according to the member, whom i assumed knew) was many holes needed work done on them.

i was being cheeky with the windmill comment....but, sorry, it is odd to have a 80 foot tall windmill in front of a par 5 green,no?

i was also being cheeky with my 17 mile one lane road comment...but again, that does seem a bit over the top, no?

[Mike Hendren]

Chip,

I would appreciate an advance copy of your forthcoming book:  Screw Good Manners - You Too Can Play Pine Valley, Merion, Oakmont and Augusta National.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Tim K:

I apologize if I misrepresented the status of the original ownership group (yourself included).  I'm also glad to hear you didn't lose money on the deal.  I met the new managing partner when I was out there last summer, and I must have misunderstood something he said.

Since you're here, can you describe the ownership group's mandate to the Nicklaus Design group about what you wanted in the course?  The course certainly wasn't what I expected it to be ... but maybe I shouldn't have expected what I did.

 

[Jim Briggs]

uggg.

you guys kill me with this good manners stuff...again, i got my information from a MEMBER!

i post the best pictures i have of the course and make a few remarks (from the member) about course rework and now somehow i have bad manners...

and as far as i can tell my statements have all been correct.  we may split hairs over "rebuild" or "rework" but according to this thread rework has been done on many holes and greens.

i didn't say the course sucked, i didn't say it was in terrible condition, i didn't say the folks running the place we rude, all i said (according to the member, whom i assumed knew) was many holes needed work done on them.

i was being cheeky with the windmill comment....but, sorry, it is odd to have a 80 foot tall windmill in front of a par 5 green,no?

i was also being cheeky with my 17 mile one lane road comment...but again, that does seem a bit over the top, no?

and if you're counting you were being cheeky with the "Dismal (what your investment will do) River.." comment as well.

[Chip Gaskins]

fair point.  cheeky comment removed.

[Tim Kratz]

Tom:  We discussed with the Nicklaus group the the same things we discussed with you when you were out on the property.    One, find the best 18 holes anywhere you want on the 3000 acres.  Two, don't move much dirt.  Three, make it walkable.  We had recently returned from a trip to Scotland and also talked at some length with Chris Cochran about how much fun we had playing courses like Cruden Bay and Royal Dornoch and how we did not object to blind shots or some degree of quirkiness.  I know you have indicated that you have seen the course in person.  Have you ever played it?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

We played a handful of holes (with borrowed clubs) while looking around, but did not have time to play the whole course.

[Sean_A]

I hate to say this, but those two fairways look photo-shopped into the picture to me.

Does anybody know whether this freeze burn from the winter will be all fixed by, oh, say, the first weekend in August?

It seems like one of the problems at courses like this is getting the course to blend in with the surrounds.  I'm judging solely on these and other photos so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but I dont think they have the blending figured out here at all.   I am not sure what the purpose of the dark rough around the edges serves except to insulate the course from the surrounds, but why build a course in a landscape like this if you are going to insulate it from the landscape?   

Similarly, some of the bunkers (especially greenside bunkers) in these and other photos look to be deliberately sequestered from the actual course by the rough buffer.  Here for example . . .

 

more pics and write up at www.golfcourseclassics.com

I know MacKenzie incorporated some bunkers into hillsides for visual effect, especially where the bunker was largely natural (13 at cypress for example) but I don't think he buffered them off.  Doesn't this seem almost an implicit acknowledgment that that the bunkers are purely for show? 

For the record, while I loved Sand Hills but in my very limited exposure I was not entirely thrilled with their transitions into the native either.  The transitions looked much more natural than in the photos above, but the irrigation apparently extended into the native (maybe just by wind?) so while the look was better the first bit of native was incredibly lush and thick compared to the native just a few yards away, so a bigger miss was often rewarded with a much better and more natural lie.  Fortunately for me I tend to miss by a lot.

In my limited exposure, Ballyneal seemed to have the better transitions, with the golf course sort of dying out into the native, and the native maintaining its true character right into the course.  But I saw the course pretty early in the process and I hope they are able to maintain this as the course matures.

Again my comments on all these courses should be taken with a grain of salt because I have seen one (DR) only in photos and the other two only for a couple of days each.   I'd be glad to hear any alternative views others may have on any or all.

I agree with David.  The transitions on this course look very odd, but it could just be the time of the year with the colour of the native grasses clashing strongly with the course.  It reminds me a lot of desert courses - the course just seems sort of super-imposed.  Having said that, working in from the edges of the fairway, the course looks good to me.  I really like the elevation changes and there does seem to be some cool stuff happening around the greens. 

Chip, thanks for posting.  Do you have more pix?

Ciao

[Jim Johnson]

Thanx for the pics.

[Chip Gaskins]

I hate to say this, but those two fairways look photo-shopped into the picture to me.

Does anybody know whether this freeze burn from the winter will be all fixed by, oh, say, the first weekend in August?

It seems like one of the problems at courses like this is getting the course to blend in with the surrounds.  I'm judging solely on these and other photos so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, but I dont think they have the blending figured out here at all.   I am not sure what the purpose of the dark rough around the edges serves except to insulate the course from the surrounds, but why build a course in a landscape like this if you are going to insulate it from the landscape?   

Similarly, some of the bunkers (especially greenside bunkers) in these and other photos look to be deliberately sequestered from the actual course by the rough buffer.  Here for example . . .

 

I know MacKenzie incorporated some bunkers into hillsides for visual effect, especially where the bunker was largely natural (13 at cypress for example) but I don't think he buffered them off.  Doesn't this seem almost an implicit acknowledgment that that the bunkers are purely for show? 

For the record, while I loved Sand Hills but in my very limited exposure I was not entirely thrilled with their transitions into the native either.  The transitions looked much more natural than in the photos above, but the irrigation apparently extended into the native (maybe just by wind?) so while the look was better the first bit of native was incredibly lush and thick compared to the native just a few yards away, so a bigger miss was often rewarded with a much better and more natural lie.  Fortunately for me I tend to miss by a lot.

In my limited exposure, Ballyneal seemed to have the better transitions, with the golf course sort of dying out into the native, and the native maintaining its true character right into the course.  But I saw the course pretty early in the process and I hope they are able to maintain this as the course matures.

Again my comments on all these courses should be taken with a grain of salt because I have seen one (DR) only in photos and the other two only for a couple of days each.   I'd be glad to hear any alternative views others may have on any or all.

I agree with David.  The transitions on this course look very odd, but it could just be the time of the year with the colour of the native grasses clashing strongly with the course.  It reminds me a lot of desert courses - the course just seems sort of super-imposed.  Having said that, working in from the edges of the fairway, the course looks good to me.  I really like the elevation changes and there does seem to be some cool stuff happening around the greens. 

Chip, thanks for posting.  Do you have more pix?

Ciao

Sean -

More pics...

Those huge thunderheads in the background are the ones that caused the tornado in Kearney about three hours after this photo..


Cabins


Hole #1


Hole #3


Hole #6
Short par 4 uphill to a punchbowl green


Hole #8
Drivable par 4 with the green about 275 out to the right side of the pic.  Mark hit it 4 feet for a TWO!


Hole #10
The par 3 with the bunker in the middle of the green.  135 to front section, 175 to back section.


Back of #10 looking forward

[Bart Bradley]

While I can see and understand the negative points about the photos being  raised, the course looks interesting to me.  There seems to be lots of movement in the ground and the greens and certainly the design group took some risks.  You can't strike out unless you go to bat.  So what if some modifications had to be made....how many times has Dye changed Crooked Stick or the TPC?  I think that the only way modifications would be ruled out would be if you never took any chances and only did what you knew would work.

So, the question for the GCA's is:  "When you take a chance on something new/different, doesn't it create the possibility that your work might have to be tweaked in the future?"

Bart

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

For all the thrashing that takes place / re: DR -- I still see it as one of Team Bear's best layouts -- although the revamped 13th hole was something that was needed.

One other thing -- anyone bitching and moaning about the center-placed bunker at the 10th hole there should say no less concerning the center-placed bunker at Riviera's 6th hole.

DR has plenty of thrill moments and is one to play when in the area.

[Kyle Harris]

The 2nd set of pictures seem to be a much better and appealing representation of the golf course. There are some off integrations, but things like the 10th hole look much more logical when viewed from the tee.

I see the "Chip Gaskins Fallacy" still exists, where the entire value, strength and overall worth of a golf course can be determined based on one trip in one set of conditions.

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