[Mike Hendren]

i post the best pictures i have of the course and make a few remarks (from the member) about course rework and now somehow i have bad manners...

So this picture was among your best:


While this one wasn't?


I smell the BS out my window.

Forgive me for picking on you. 

Kindest regards,

Mike 

[Ron Farris]

I really enjoy these Dismal threads!  People really under estimate how harsh the environment in the Sand Hills can be in the winter and spring.  Without adequate snow cover and moisture on a relatively new course that has not built up its organic matter it is not unfathomable to have a green succum to a little winter kill. 

With the Sand Hills just down the street it is like asking if you want to be with Gisele Bunchen or Heidi Klum.  Even the bad is likely to be good some of the time.

What is interesting to me is the way that Dismal (from pictures only) blends (or does not blend) into the native a little more harsh than Sand Hills or Ballyneal for that matter.
I know the Doak crew take and took great effort to blend and almost mottle the transition areas into the unmowed rough.  Again, from the pictures only, the intermediate, if you will, cut seems to really stand out in some of the pictures. 

A friend of mine will be playing Dismal shortly.  It will be interesting to hear his take on the golf course.  He also recently played Sutton Bay.  It is my understanding that they had a touch winter or spring and have some suspect turf.

It is alway fun to read about the Sand Hills and the various takes on the place.  As one who was born and raised in the area it is simply good to see golf in the area.

[Kyle Harris]

One must also realize that Sand Hills is now... 14 years old? That sort of adaptability and establishment counts. With Dismal River being so relatively new... things are bound to pop up and need to be changed.

Does anyone know if Sand Hills went through similar growing pains?

[John Kirk]

I don't think the 10th green is exhibiting winter kill.  It looks much more like drifting sand to me.

The pictures of the course look nice to me.  I love that Sand Hills environment.  As I've said before, I toured the course once, and in person it looked difficult to walk and difficult to score on, a very tough course.

Tim or Chip, is that true?  Does anybody walk the course?  Were you able to play the course in a reasonable amount of shots? 

[Chip Gaskins]

The 2nd set of pictures seem to be a much better and appealing representation of the golf course. There are some off integrations, but things like the 10th hole look much more logical when viewed from the tee.

I see the "Chip Gaskins Fallacy" still exists, where the entire value, strength and overall worth of a golf course can be determined based on one trip in one set of conditions.

You guys crack me up...the "Chip Gaskins Fallacy"...sorry I can't set up shop in Mullen, NE for a month and play the same course every day to make sure I get all the different conditions.

Does Robert Parker drink a case of wine before he makes a rating on a wine?  Of course not.

Does the New York Times book reviewers read a book 3 times before writing an opinion?  Of course not.

Does Zagats go to a restraunt 5 times before writing its review? Of course not.

Listen, I really didn't say anything bad about Dismal River "the course" I only made a few comments about the business model and the rework process.

It's also funny that no one has mentioned my glowing review of Wild Horse, its only when I am remotely critical about a course or business model that I get panned.  Basically the mantra is only report puffery or keep your mouth shut.

[Kyle Henderson]

I'll be in the area at the end of June. Will anyone else from the treehouse be around? I'd love to connect on the course or in the clubhouse.

Please, send me an IM.

[Chip Gaskins]

i post the best pictures i have of the course and make a few remarks (from the member) about course rework and now somehow i have bad manners...

So this picture was among your best:


While this one wasn't?


I smell the BS out my window.

Forgive me for picking on you. 

Kindest regards,

Mike 

Mike-

I don't mind the jabbing, keep it coming.

Actually, I included the 10th hole picture because its not every day you have a bunker in the middle of a green, especially for Jack Nicklaus, I think it is his first.  It had nothing to do with the condition of the greens.  And if you will take the time to go back and read my comments you can see I never ever mention the winter kill or bad condition of some of the greens.  Hey, I know it can be though growing grass and mother nature usually wins the battle.  The Super at Sand Hills said they had a though Winter and I left it at that.  With that said, I have several more pictures of greens that I DIDN'T post that were much worse but I didn't want to show them because there was no need in highlighting the condition unless it was architecturally worthy like the 10th hole.

I spent my college summers on a golf course maintenance staff, growing grass is hard work.  I am never going to be critical of that process.

Sorry you think I am so vain or vindictive.

Chip

[Kyle Harris]

Chip,

It wasn't just Dismal. While I respect your opinion on Merion, a lot of your conclusions there seemed based on that day and not the flexibility the design of the golf course allows in varying conditions. I've also noticed you do not separate architecture from maintenance. which I feel detracts from your otherwise decent analysis.

One cannot regurgitate the same bottle of wine. Reading is not an experience where such variable conditions as the season, weather, playing ability or time of day affect the book's quality and the sophistication does not change with the course of time. From what I know Zagats collects data from multiple sources to form their reviews, so in effect, they do go to the restaurant multiple times. Those analogies are simply non sequitor and have no resemblance to golf course analysis.

I do not mind your criticism, what I mind is that you present them as the be-all end-all for the golf course.

[Chip Gaskins]

I don't think the 10th green is exhibiting winter kill.  It looks much more like drifting sand to me.

The pictures of the course look nice to me.  I love that Sand Hills environment.  As I've said before, I toured the course once, and in person it looked difficult to walk and difficult to score on, a very tough course.

Tim or Chip, is that true?  Does anybody walk the course?  Were you able to play the course in a reasonable amount of shots? 

John-

I suppose in theory you could walk the course....but it would be a tall task!  I certainly would not want to do it.  Not that the walks from greens to tees are necessarily long, its just a lot of up and down in sandy conditions.

I shot 78 and missed about 5 putts inside 10 feet due to leaving them short.  I would not say it is overly hard like some of Nicklaus' courses.  Again, keeping it in play off the tee is key.  We played it from about 6800 yards I think with virtually no wind.

Chip-

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

It wasn't just Dismal. While I respect your opinion on Merion, a lot of your conclusions there seemed based on that day and not the flexibility the design of the golf course allows in varying conditions. I've also noticed you do not separate architecture from maintenance. which I feel detracts from your otherwise decent analysis.

One cannot regurgitate the same bottle of wine. Reading is not an experience where such variable conditions as the season, weather, playing ability or time of day affect the book's quality and the sophistication does not change with the course of time. From what I know Zagats collects data from multiple sources to form their reviews, so in effect, they do go to the restaurant multiple times. Those analogies are simply non sequitor and have no resemblance to golf course analysis.

I do not mind your criticism, what I mind is that you present them as the be-all end-all for the golf course.

Kyle-

Fair points all around.  Though I do think Robert Parker (based on differnt temps, moods, foods) is a fair proxy and NYT Book Review  (you read a little something new every time you pick up the same book)is a fair proxy.

Of course my thoughts are not the be-all end-all on these courses.  They are my opinion and I know you guys are smart enough to parse through that.

Not to beat a dead horse, but Merion #4 has been cut to that width (according to this board) that way since the 1970s US Open... I don't call that maintenance practice, I call that integral to the design of the hole over a 30 year period.  But I hear you...we can agree to disagree

Respectfully,
Chip

[Tim Bert]

Chip - Please go back and read your original post.  If you don't agree that the following captions for your photos come off as snide, well, you and I have quite a different opinion.

"17 miles of one lane paved private road to get there....are you serious...wonder what the ROI on that is?"

"Yep, that is really a windmill in front of the 4th green.."

"Yep, that is really a large bunker in the middle of the green...not exactly Riviera"

"The last hole is really really good up to 50 yards in..then, well, no so good.  The tee shot doesn't get much better, but the green is, well, green"

We're not to infer any of those as witty knocks on the course?

I have no horse in this race whatsoever.  I find it somewhat disrespectful to visit a private club as a guest and within days start knocking it around in a public forum.  If your host and the course owners disagree, then I guess I'm out of line.  I don't think this has to do with frank commentary.  I think it is all in the tone and the presentation.

I'm not taking a jab.  Just providing my opinion.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I like the new pictures a lot more.
Cheers

[Adam Clayman]

From the better pictures of the bunkers, there's another positive change. Apparently, Justin has removed the severe over growth from the original grow in, on the tongues, clumps and edges.

Matt Ward,

One other thing -- anyone bitching and moaning about the center-placed bunker at the 10th hole there should say no less concerning the center-placed bunker at Riviera's 6th hole.

There's a major difference between the two. Size and Scale. They are important, and, I don't believe Team Nicklaus appreciates that yet. Anothhr example would be the center bunker #9 at Sebonack. Not bad for a first effort trying to learn how to do "That".

John Kirk, Sand drifting looks nothing like that. As I said earlier, there was bent grass winter kill throughout the region, unless a winter watering regime was implemented as I'm sure they did down river.

David Moriarity, Your observations were respectful and if were on Team Nicklaus, I would hope to hear them as constructive.

[Jim Nugent]

I do not mind your criticism, what I mind is that you present them as the be-all end-all for the golf course.

I have not picked up that at all from Chip. 

ETA:  also, I like his threads, and enjoy the fact that he often takes positions that the majority here oppose.  I'm sure I would love Merion, given everything I know about the course, but it intrigues me that it did not blow him away. 

[Adam Clayman]

The problem I have with Chip's opinions here is that they lack any architecturally based justification.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I too like the newer pictures better.

[Tim Pitner]

Why is it that courses in Australia are able to mow the grass right up to the bunkers, making for hard edges, while courses here, even many supposed natural-looking courses, have fringes of rough around the bunker (I'm thinking of the bunker in the green at Dismal)?  Is it just because clubs there take the trouble to do it or is there any other reason?

[Tim Bert]

Tim P -

The quotes I posted from the photo captions look a lot more like cheap shots than frank commentary on architecture - that isn't the preferable approach for a public or private facility.  This is not an attack on Chip.  Plenty of folks do it.  I've done it before too.  It's too easy on a public forum like this to provide one-liner tidbits as opposed to detailed analysis.

I have no problem with anyone posting stuff about private courses if they'd say thew exact same thing to the face of the host, manager, or owner.  There is tactful criticism and then there is harsh criticism.

I agree entirely about your comment that it SHOULD be entirely between Chip and his host.  I believe I even stated that exact thing myself in the words you quoted and responded too.  Google 'Chip Gaskins' and tell me what pops up first thing for all the world to see.  It's not between him and his host and it isn't even limited to the participants on this site.  If Chip's comfortable with this, then it is all good.

There's an entirely different thread on this topic that someone started recently, so I'll cease.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

I probably shouldn't have quoted your post--I was responding to comments I read on here from time to time more than to your specific comments. 

I'm going to edit my previous post so my architectural question isn't ignored. 

[David Druzisky]

nice 2nd set of pictures.

First question.  What would everyones impression be of this course if it was the first course to be developed in the sand hills instead of as a follow up to the original which set a pretty high bar of expectation?

Second Question.  We hear quite a bit about the way TD and CC go about their business on projects like these, but what can someone tell me about how Team Bear went about it.  My first impression would be that they are not set up to do this type of work as well as others, but do they adapt when needed.  I am sure they have the talent.  (I will have to ask them directly at one of our upcoming get togethers.)

DbD

[RJ_Daley]

Mr. Lipe has dropped into these DR threads over the years.  Perhaps he will again.  Mr. Kratz's comments are appreciated as are the comments of Chip Gaskins and others who have actually played the course, who have opinions. 

On one of the previous DR threads, I made what I thought was a fairly benign observation on DR from pictures, and was taken to the woodshed, even though I tried to pre-advise that I had not seen or played the course.   I didn't mind being challenged on an opinion based on photo observation, because the objection was reasonable. 

Some of the stuff I raised, seems in context with these recent observations that people have made, who have now played the course. 

Whatever they have up that 17 mile road, I hope it is an evolving situation, and that patience is rendered, to make whatever adjustments they must to make it better.  I do know that those in the positions of maintenance and oversight are doing their best, and probably everyone concerned will still learn a great deal as time goes on. 

The thing is... it seems to me as time goes on and new plans for other golf venues in the sand hills come along (like Prairie Club), we ought to start to come to the understanding that none of them are as close to design, and conditions as they seem on the surface.  Each has their own set of turf growing conditions micro climates, and business or operational models.  Sincerely motivated and passionate people are trying hard to succeed in their dreams.  We shouldn't start to pit one against the other.  These developers and architects have - right from the beginning - tried to learn from each other (like Doak's Rennaisance Group Outting at SHGC, in late 90s-2000ish)  All the big design players and dreamer developers were there, along with his subsequent ones at PD, etc.   The same holds true for the operational and maintenance side, like the Believer's Cup, where the people in the positions of responsibility are collegial and get together to compare notes to make things better in the future. 

So, constructive criticism is always the best thing.  But, we have to be careful that people's livelyhoods, dreams and finances are involved, thus we need to be circumspect.  Hopefully, the future projects, including Prairie Club, will benefit from the ongoing discussions.  Just, so we don't undermine efforts with unfounded comments...

[Kirk Gill]

Chip's posts are frank, and they contain commentary, and he certainly gets to play the world's finest golf courses.

I enjoy them.

What amazes me, though, is how much criticism he's getting for his take on Dismal River, given how much criticism JN's courses typically receive in this forum. Sure, some of Chip's comments are a bit snarky, but I've certainly read harsher commentary, particularly regarding this particular architect.

On an architectural note, I think that many on this thread have hit on my only real issue with the course, at least from pictures, and that is the way the course engages with the surrounding "native." What is cool about that look, though, is the way some of those fairways look like a green liquid was poured into the sandy valleys.......it's different, in it's own way. Instead of integration it provides something more like juxtaposition, which can also be interesting and worthwhile.

The course looks like it would be difficult for the likes of me, but, dare I say it, fun !

[Eric Smith]

What really amazes me about these pictures is how differently they appear to show the course (and I'm not talking about the winter kill) compared to the photos in the club's dvd I received last year.  I must've watched that thing 10 times, including just now, and the photographs just blow me away.  What I see, judging from the video, is a stout golf course with some beautiful movement all around that looks like a blast to play, especially if the wind kicks up.

I gotta believe many, many of us would enjoy playing this golf course. 

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