[Chip Gaskins]

Guys, I just spent the last few days getting my Nebraska GCA education... Pics of Sand Hills and  Wild Horse to follow.

Here are some pics from Dismal River...

I had the absolute pleasure of playing with Mark Amundson from the Prairie Club and we had a great day talking GCA

Rumor has it they have had to rebuild 14 of 18 holes already.  I would love to hear everyone's take on how a contract should be written to take into account 14 holes having to be rebuilt...

17 miles of one lane paved private road to get there....are you serious...wonder what the ROI on that is?


Yep, that is really a windmill in front of the 4th green..


Yep, that is really a large bunker in the middle of the green...not exactly Riviera


A pretty solid par 5...


The last hole is really really good up to 50 yards in..then, well, no so good.  The tee shot doesn't get much better, but the green is, well,


green



more pics and write up at www.golfcourseclassics.com

[Adam Clayman]

Not exactly accurate.

They rebuilt one hole and re-contoured 12 other greens.(in house)

Looks like they had quite a bit of Winter Kill on the greens.

The 18th green can be mostly blind. If that's it's only flaw, many a great alps type holes must suck.

[Matt Varney]

Chip,

Are those pictures for real with all that sand all over the greens?  The fairways look pretty good but, it sounds like you were not very impressed and I am curious just why a course would need to rebuild 14 of 18 holes just a couple years after being completed.

How did you post these images in your post?  I have a couple I would like to post without having to use a web link.  Did you just paste them into the body of the message?

[Chip Gaskins]

Adam-

Fair enough...I did say "rumor" has it.  But having to rebuild 12 greens and 1 hole is pretty close to the "rumor" and pretty dog gone expensive given I just paid the architect over a million bucks to do just that for me, no?  And from what I hear they had to raise numerous fairways (matter of fact you can see that rework I think) heights.

Wait till my praise of Wild Horse :-)

Chip

[Joe Hancock]

I don't think removing some sod, regrading and replacing the sod constitutes a "rebuild".....that's like putting   replacement windows in your house, then saying you rebuilt your house.

Unless we know the minor changes were because of poor craftsmanship and not the whim of an owner, the contract question should be avoided. It's none of our business.

Joe

[Chip Gaskins]

OK, sorry I brought it up, I assume the "rumor" part would buy me a break.  As far as I understand it the project has changed hands a couple of times.  All I was trying to say was if I were the proprietor of the place and had to re-build, re-do, re-spend, however you want to say it, on 14 of 18 holes I wouldn't be really thrilled with what I originally paid for.

[Chip Gaskins]

OK, here we go again. 

I have had a few public and private remarks. 

I am a bit confused. 

I did not say Dismal was a bad course, I asked an open ended question to a very educated bunch of GCA enthusiast.  If you hire someone to design a course and within one year you have to do a substantial rework, how does that make folks feel.  I genuinely wanted to hear what people thought.  I haven't even had a chance to get to the glowing posts on Sand Hills and Wild Horse yet.

I suppose I sound like the great John Kavanaugh (John, you and I will be friends before long) but what is the big deal...you pay a architect  $1M to design a course that immediately needs to be redone sounds like open season for this educated discussion board.

I got killed for my comments about Ballyneal's business model (even though Tom Doak said the same "how many in the boonies courses can we support") though I had glowing reviews of the actual course. 

And after talking GCA business models for four hours with Mark Amundson (who is actually putting his money where his mouth is at Sutton Bay and Prairie Club) I thought this would be a good topic to ponder on this board. 

Just so you know...Sand Hills is all its hyped up to be and Wild Horse is even better than the hype...If all courses could be as good as Wild Horse!!!!

[Jim Nugent]

Chip, can you tell us more of what you liked and didn't like about Dismal?  What you think is good or not good? 

[Chip Gaskins]

First off, I suppose I picked the wrong place to talk money and ROI.  I just as much (or close) enjoy talking business models (Ballyneal, Prairie Club, Ballyhack, Wild Horse, etc) as I do the discrete nature of green complexes or Alps holes.  BUT, I will stay on topic and discuss the architectural aspects of Dismal..

Things I Love:
Several par 5s with long sweeping vistas.  #12 and #18 with great fairway bunkers that test the player to challenge them.  No real good central hazards but a good mix of fairway bunkers to frame a golfers decisions.  Really good par 5s.

Things I Like:
Several short par 4s.  I really like short par 4s.  With that said, I like short par 4s that the golfer might be able to reach with a world class tee shot.  Dismal's short par 4s for the most part can't actually be driven.  They are short, but other than #7 they can't be driven. 

Things That I Could Take of Leave:
Par 3s.  None were necessarily very stellar.  None were particularly bad, but none that I could remember other than #10 with a huge bunker dead center of the green.  Two of the par 3s have very steep (over 10 feet) drop offs that seem very sharp around the edges.

Things That Were Bad:
#10 green has a bunker in the middle of it and four very distinctive sections that can't truely be two putted from the wrong section. #2 hole has a blind tee shot (not too bad) and completely blind second shot to a green that runs away from the player.

[Mike Sweeney]

First off, I suppose I pick the wrong place to talk money and ROI.  I just as much (or close) enjoy talking business models (Ballyneal, Prairie Club, Ballyhack, Wild Horse, etc) as I do the discrete nature of green complexes or Alps holes. 

I enjoy it too. However, it is difficult to really know what is going on without all the details. We don't really know what the "Charter" was from the owner to Nicklaus other than press reports which have nothing to do with reality. If the owner asked for 'really wild greens, like St. Andrews' maybe Jack did his job and the owner screwed up.

I once saw two holes on a course that just did not fit. I asked the architect what happened. well the owner believed that the one green site sitting in the middle of an environmental area looked just like "Augusta 13" and forced the architect to use it. Two holes go down the drain in order to get into and back out of that area.

I am very surprised that The Prairie Club is back on based on Doak's "how many do we need in the Sand Hills" theory, and the banks not lending money on land and construction. Again what do I really know, maybe the owner has deep pockets and maybe Tom Lehman is working for a piece of the action. Who knows?

PS. I sent two of my private golf snob buddies to the public low budget Wild Horse last summer. They loved it. What is not to love about Wild Horse?

[Tom_Doak]

The board has gotten VERY politically correct all of a sudden if a poster can't even ask if a lot of changes to a course in year 2 is a sign of something, and assumes that it may well have been the owner's request to build some questionable stuff ...

None of us will ever know the owners' marching instructions to Jack Nicklaus on this project, although it's hard to imagine they were micro-managing all the details since they sold the place [EDITED to reflect correction of facts in subsequent post] after one year of operation. 

But, Chip, you shouldn't call it malpractice.  Just call it bad design, if that's what you think.

That tenth hole is something else.  If you'd showed it to me five years ago and told me that Jack Nicklaus had built that hole, I would have bet my life against it.

As for the viability of The Prairie Club, or of any other course in the Sand Hills, what I said was that these clubs are shooting for a national market, the same as any new private course in Montana or Texas or anywhere away from a population center.  There is only so big a market for those type of memberships.  I'm not sure if that market is saturated yet, but at the rate we're going, it will be.  Nevertheless, if someone builds a course as good as Sand Hills, it will succeed ... it's just harder to do than a lot of developers think. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Logistics question - do the staff have any housing on-site?  I'd imagine the trip to/from home every day would be cost prohibitive considering fuel prices.

[Mike Sweeney]

None of us will ever know the owners' marching instructions to Jack Nicklaus on this project, although it's hard to imagine they were micro-managing all the details since they sold the place at a loss after one year of operation. 

Tom,

Just to clarify, I never heard it was new ownership at Dismal after year one, so now I really think it was a developer and not an architect problem. Should Nicklaus have stopped and said "no you can't and I won't do XYZ green?" I really don't think there is a right answer because as you know developers write the checks and sometimes they just won't listen. I know how you handle this, and you are to be commended, but it may not be right for everyone.

On your other point about National Destination Clubs, I would futher break it down by saying that Rock Creek and Ballyneal really are not competing. In the case of Ballyneal, it is probably money that I am not looking to get back and I have to convince my golf buddies to make some trips every year. At Rock Creek, it is a housing (I think) investment with a golf course and life style. There I am not so worried about Tiger Bernhardt visiting as I am my wife and kids.  Very few will try both.

[Jim Colton]

Chip. I enjoyed the pictures and the blog, especially considering I was *this* close to making a similar trip to the Sand Hills region this summer.  I'm looking forward to seeing those Wild Horse pics.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim Colton, That is winter kill. The region had a lot of Bent grass check out. None as bad I as those pictures illustrate. With Troon now managing, I assume the Super has to call the agronomist just to put down fertilizer. So, in their defense, the window for growing grass this season has been very short and only began in earnest about 2-3 weeks ago. Cooler night temps must have kept ground temps from getting above 40 degrees, until recently. 

Chip et all, The issues with DR have been discussed in this forum before. A simple search should yield most of the process.

[George Pazin]

OK, here we go again. 

I have had a few public and private remarks. 

I am a bit confused. 

I did not say Dismal was a bad course, I asked an open ended question to a very educated bunch of GCA enthusiast.  If you hire someone to design a course and within one year you have to do a substantial rework, how does that make folks feel.  I genuinely wanted to hear what people thought.  I haven't even had a chance to get to the glowing posts on Sand Hills and Wild Horse yet.

I suppose I sound like the great John Kavanaugh (John, you and I will be friends before long) but what is the big deal...you pay a architect  $1M to design a course that immediately needs to be redone sounds like open season for this educated discussion board.

I got killed for my comments about Ballyneal's business model (even though Tom Doak said the same "how many in the boonies courses can we support") though I had glowing reviews of the actual course. 

And after talking GCA business models for four hours with Mark Amundson (who is actually putting his money where his mouth is at Sutton Bay and Prairie Club) I thought this would be a good topic to ponder on this board. 

Just so you know...Sand Hills is all its hyped up to be and Wild Horse is even better than the hype...If all courses could be as good as Wild Horse!!!!

Chip, the reason it's a big deal to many on here is that it has been discussed before many times, quite heatedly so, before you came on board. Of course, there's no way you could know that. There are also posters who are involved with the project, so it has gotten rather passionate at times.

No problems from my end, just thought I'd let you know some of the history.

[Jim Colton]

Jim Colton, That is winter kill. The region had a lot of Bent grass check out. None as bad I as those pictures illustrate. With Troon now managing, I assume the Super has to call the agronomist just to put down fertilizer. So, in their defense, the window for growing grass this season has been very short and only began in earnest about 2-3 weeks ago. Cooler night temps must have kept ground temps from getting above 40 degrees, until recently. 

Chip et all, The issues with DR have been discussed in this forum before. A simple search should yield most of the process.
Sweens,
Your esoteric was butchered in the editing. Please fix it or nobody will get your point.

Thanks Adam...I thought it was the grass at first but it looked to be bunched up around the bunker on the 10th.  My eyes must be failing me.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The fairway lines of the "pretty solid par 5" look completely incongruous with the site.
And the 3 cuts on 18 don't look so hot either...

[Brad Swanson]

The fairway lines of the "pretty solid par 5" look completely incongruous with the site.
And the 3 cuts on 18 don't look so hot either...

Mike,
   I was going to make a similar comment to the look of the rough on the photo of #18.  In contrast, the rough at Sand Hills seems to blend more with the scrub rather than having an abrupt boundary.  That observation may be just an aesthetic gripe and may not relect any impact on playability, but maintaining the multiple cuts of rough with a defined boundary might increase the maintenance cost.

Cheers,
Brad
 

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, That's an excellent catch. The maintenance presentation was not so noticeable when it was wall to wall green, per JN designs standards. However, the practice of cutting out some of the native areas has improved the playable width. In such a windy region all these vista tees shrink that fairway considerably. Now, slight misses have a chance for recovery. A very positive improvement.

[Rick Shefchik]

Is it political correctness, or merely good manners, to refrain from posting rumors about a private club at which you were a one-day guest?

I have no dog in this fight -- don't know anyone at the Dismal River Club, and I've never played it -- but if someone played my home club once and then posted an inaccurate rumor about it here, I'd have preferred they got the facts from a member.

[Rick Shefchik]

Is it political correctness, or merely good manners, to refrain from posting rumors about a private club at which you were a one-day guest?

I have no dog in this fight -- don't know anyone at the Dismal River Club, and I've never played it -- but if someone played my home club once and then posted an inaccurate rumor about it here, I'd have preferred they got the facts from a member.

I must be channeling Hamilton B. Hearst...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Cant say I am inspired by these pictures. Generally on GCA I am.

[tlavin]

Dismal Golf Course

[Jerry Kluger]

I played it very early in its life and the watering system was causing the grasses just off the fairway to be so thick that there was no chance of recovery - I understand that was to be adjusted to prevent that condition. 

I am not a fan of the 18th because of the blind shot into the green.  You have to be just about on top of the green to see the flag, and even then, it is hard to envision its location within the green.  If you are walking you or your caddie  just don't want to climb up the hill and then back down to figure out where you are going.  Even if you are riding, the green complex is very involved and you are guessing where your ball is should you not hit the green or bounce over, etc. Personally, I would've considered making it a par 4 with the green at the top of the hill.

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