[TEPaul]

This is certainly a legitimate question on my part and not rhetorical. From what I know I have got to think it must be Hanse but I sure don't know that much across the business in that area. That he had the reputation of doing a lot of his own shaping and being so good at it sure was one of the primary reasons we picked him amongst a couple of other good restorationists for our restoration project at GMGC about six years ago.

I don't know how many of you guys have spent much time in the field but I'm kind of in awe of really good shapers, they do seem like true aesthetic artists on some of these big mechanized behemoths.

Also, if you spent enough time out there you can't help notice running those big dozers is pretty brutal physically.

And for the very detailed-minded in architecture it would be interesting to know what a guy like Hanse listens to in those headphones he always has on. I'm listening to an old CD of ENYA right now and it seems like that would be pretty inspiring to shape with! It's pretty ethereal.

Who are the best shapers who have their own architecture companies?

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you another thing about Gil Hanse you may not know. He is one helluva an artistic drawer!

[Grant Saunders]

I had the immense pleasure of having Gil as one of the people to teach me shaping on the Castle Stuart project.

We did all the shaping with a CAT D6 LGP which Gil said is a bit bigger than he normally uses but it certainly in no way seemed to inhibit him from crafting some very intricate shapes. He told me that they (him and Jim Wagner) prefer to do their own shaping as it is easier than trying to convey to someone else what needs to be built. He also said that it lessens the need for him to draw very detailed plans as he can build something usually quicker than drawing it out.

It really was fun to watch Gil and Jim work together bouncing ideas off each other and then to see their respective machine skills (Gil dozer and Jim digger) bring the course to life. They compliment each other so well.

I asked Gil one day what he was listening to on his headphones and that day happened to be Rage Against the Machine.

Me, I build some pretty cool stuff when listening to Pink Floyd's The Wall from start to end. The music definitely affects the outcome.

[TEPaul]

Grant:

Thanks for that post.

I had a ball about three weeks ago when the Castle Stuart crew passed through Merion and Philadelphia about three weeks ago. It's great to see guys that into it--really inspiring actually. Mark is one of a kind, in my book--I've always been drawn to people like that who don't just follow the crowd.

[TEPaul]

"I asked Gil one day what he was listening to on his headphones and that day happened to be Rage Against the Machine.

Me, I build some pretty cool stuff when listening to Pink Floyd's The Wall from start to end. The music definitely affects the outcome."

Grant:

If Gil or anyone teaches me how to run one of those things I think I'll start out listening to either Tommy ?'s "Don't Fence Me In" or Gladys Knight's "Midnight Train to Georgia"' or Lennon's "Imagine".   

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Nothing from your show tunes collection?  How about "A Cockeyed Optimist?"   

[Kyle Harris]

I remember someone posting that they did routings while listening to "Duke's Travels" from Genesis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFNyVe-ULw

Definitely from their "Wall of sound" days and a favorite of mine.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
I think any of the architects that did not start at a drafting table have been on a dozier....or at least had their picture made on one.  My first couple of jobs I tried it for as few hours a day but it was not as productive as using the shaper that I had on site....now for me using the trackhoe was much easier to learn as to bunkers etc. I have heard that there are some who are proficient enough to actually shape their projects but for most it would be futile....(but it would make a good foto or press )  NOW I do think there are some that "finish float" their greens....I do that many times just to get what I want and it also lets the client think I know what I am doing .

BUT I really don't personally know any architects that would be considered "accomplished" shapers.....just as there are not many tour players that are "accomplished" architects...it takes time and the time is not there if your going to be good at the other.

[Tim Copeland]

If you are listening to music how do you tell if your dozer is not running right??

I guess it stops or you see the big cloud of black smoke and you stop.

I have seen some pretty nice work to Silent Lucidity by Queensryche

[Mike Demetriou]

For those of us who have never been involved in the construction of a course, is there by any chance a video somewhere that shows how a shaper creates a bunker? I'm fascinated by the concept - especially considering the photos I've seen on this site highlighting the "natural" design aspects of famous courses.

I look at some of Tim Bert's photos of PD, and I cannot imagine how a guy in a bulldozer created these bunkers. It is almost as though I need video evidence to controvert the notion that all (not some) of these bunkers were already there.

[Tim Copeland]

For those of us who have never been involved in the construction of a course, is there by any chance a video somewhere that shows how a shaper creates a bunker? I'm fascinated by the concept - especially considering the photos I've seen on this site highlighting the "natural" design aspects of famous courses.

I look at some of Tim Bert's photos of PD, and I cannot imagine how a guy in a bulldozer created these bunkers. It is almost as though I need video evidence to controvert the notion that all (not some) of these bunkers were already there.

I do not have any videos...but it is a wonder to watch someone that is very good.....like watching a pool player setting up his next shot with shape....a good shaper never has to "manufacture" dirt to make his next move.  When the good ones are finished it is ready to drain or very very close to ready

[Kyle Harris]

For those of us who have never been involved in the construction of a course, is there by any chance a video somewhere that shows how a shaper creates a bunker? I'm fascinated by the concept - especially considering the photos I've seen on this site highlighting the "natural" design aspects of famous courses.

I look at some of Tim Bert's photos of PD, and I cannot imagine how a guy in a bulldozer created these bunkers. It is almost as though I need video evidence to controvert the notion that all (not some) of these bunkers were already there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt7-YnG0Mhw

Jim Wagner on Castle Stuart. Search for Castle Stuart on YouTube.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike D: 

It is possible to do wondrous things on a bulldozer if you are good enough.  However, most of the bunkers at Pacific Dunes were dug with an excavator, also known as a trackhoe.  A few of them were built by Nature, but none of them were built with a bulldozer.

[Mike Demetriou]

Kyle,
an incredibly simple concept - once I see it on video. Thank you for that link.  I imagine that Jim Wagner and his crew are sitting around a bar one day with Richard Valentine and he tells them all their new fangled fancy equipment is worth squat - that he can make a bunker look like its been there for years with a couple of guys, some rakes, shovels and a wheel-barrow - in one day's time. 

Tom,
thanks for the guide to the terminology. If you had to guess, what percentage of your crew, the guys building the bunkers that is, actually play golf. Hard to imagine these guys not being golfers - given the end result.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Pretty much all of my crew love to play golf, even though we aren't all equally talented at the game, and even though I may lead the field in the number of rounds played this year with my six!  (We all live in places where the golf season starts in April or May.)

About the only one guy we've worked with who doesn't play much golf is Tony Russell, the local who dug many of the bunkers at Pacific Dunes.  I've never seen him play, anyway.  So, it's possible to do great work regardless of your interest in the game, as long as you are interested in building something others will find cool.

[Tim Nugent]

Mike Young and Tom Doak bring up a good point.  More and more bunkers are being crafted with excavators.  Especially with the increasing popularity of 'mini-hoes'.  Bunkers are a product of the equipment available to build them with and to a trained eye, the era of construction can be determined ie, slip-scoop - early 20th century, straight blade D-6 post war-70's, 6-way blade 80's-90's, and now track-hoes and rubber-track bobcats.
Having done it on a dozer and with mini-hoes, I much perfer the later.  Even a small dozer has limitations due to it's size and the length of the blade.  Often you have to work from the outside - in, because there is not enough room to manuver in a small bunker.  Also, you can get a much better  concave cavity face with a hoe than a dozer.  Sorry if this to too much information but it has a lot to do with the final product.

[TEPaul]

Don't forget the interesting bunker face technique of what's referred to as "chunking." It's basically the technique of getting rather large pieces of cool looking sod and grass from other areas of the site and then bringing it to the bunker in a big bucket and sliding it in and getting it to hold on top. That kind of thing can make a bunker surround look like it's been growing in place for years. I've only seen that technique being done once. It was on the 16th at French Creek, I think, and I was about 200 yards away. As I recall, they muscled this huge piece of sod out of the bucket and into the top of the surround and then it came loose and sort of fell down and rolled Wagner into the sand portion of the bunker. This golf architecture can be pretty physical and dangerous sometimes I guess---ie:

"Here lies Jim Wagner, killed in 2003 by a really big piece of "chunked turf" at French Creek GC that apparently got pissed at him for displacing it on the site and crushed him to death."

Maybe we can get a neat movie done about this kind of thing. I suggest we call it "The World War of the Alien "Chunked Sod" Pieces".

I live directly across the street from this incredible new place of this young movie director, M. Night Shymalan! I'll run this movie idea with a super scary and evil golf course architecture theme to it by him next time I see him!

It's either that or my idea for him of a movie about one of Philadelphia's top street break-dancers who is one truly incredible painting artist who's been in Graterford Prison for the last 26 years for murder---that we really don't think he was responsible for. This is no joke, by the way---true story, and this guy is just an unbelievable artist. It would be sort of like the painting artist's version of the Ruben "Hurricane" Carter story which was a pretty good movie!

[Kyle Henderson]

How much time does Pete Dye spend on dozers these days? My impression is that he's a failry accomplished shaper, correct? Does (or did he) he work on a little bit of everything or did he focus on the greens, fairways, etc. quite specifically?

[RJ_Daley]

While not actually constructing a bunker, golf course construction has its hazards.  I am told this accident put the construction owner under, financially. 
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?slug=4019713&date=20000508

Mike Young:

I think any of the architects that did not start at a drafting table have been on a dozier.

You are a couple of s'es short of a KGB-CIA mystery novel for GCAs. 

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I don't think Pete Dye has spent any significant time on a bulldozer for at least 30 years, maybe 40, other than to have his picture taken.  That's not to say he couldn't run it, just that he doesn't run them much at all anymore.  Like me, he's got plenty of talented guys to do it for him whenever he wants them.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle:

I don't think Pete Dye has spent any significant time on a bulldozer for at least 30 years, maybe 40, other than to have his picture taken.  That's not to say he couldn't run it, just that he doesn't run them much at all anymore.  Like me, he's got plenty of talented guys to do it for him whenever he wants them.

Apparently advertising works quite well on me... I recall an aricle about Mr. Dye doing shape work at Whistling Straits, but I'm not surprised to hear that this was mainly propoganda.

Thanks for that morsel of info.

[Tom_Doak]

Pete might have been on the dozer a little bit at Whistling Straits; I wasn't there.  I do remember him getting on a box blade one day at Long Cove, and he frequently would run a sand pro over the greens, but that was all I ever saw him do.  I suspect he does it when there is nobody else around to do it, that's usually when I get on the dozer.

[Philippe Binette]

Sometimes it's great to be good but not too good on a dozer because you don't get perfect results and imperfection makes for a more natural look.

Jim Craig (Coore and Crenshaw) told me that on one of his first courses, he was told to just push the sand on the greens, and with at that tme limited dozer experience and not really trying anything, he just push down the piles...


Bill Coore showed up, and said, wow that's some of the best greens I've ever seen

[Philippe Binette]

I know he would never pretend that... and I don't say that for team promotion...

but Rod Whitman should be considered in this list

[Scott Macpherson]

There is another thread on a similar topic not far away from this one, where nominated Denis Griffiths. I would like to nominate him again. He is an architect in Atlanta, owns his own construction company, does design/builds and is very good on any machine. It's a pretty formidable skill set.

scott

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()