Torrey Pines South photo tour

[John Kavanaugh]

It happened at SHGC on either 14 or 16. Both Lefty and VeJay played for a certain area of rough because of the angle and it was less dense and manageable rough.

I specifically recall the point being made in a post round interview with Lefty , just not the number of the hole.

Exactly, aiming for the rough on what may be the finest course in the world.  I don't know how to spin that one.

[Mike Hendren]

What hole at Shinnecock during the last US Open did the players try for anything more than just in the fairway.  Given the penalty for missing a fairway and the combination of lack of width and length of hole, I would like to hear an example.   

John, I was thinking more of the fairways being more difficult to hit because they are angled from the tee.  To wit, nos. 1 (seemed like an equal no. of players missed long left and short right), 9, 12, 15 and 18.  No busting it down the middle on those holes because there's no discernable middle.

Mike

[Adam Clayman]

Actually it was not aiming for the rough, as it was an inevitable and acceptable outcome, when pulling out the driver due to the thinner rough, when trying to hit the fairway in that location.

The only problem with that course for that open were the narrow fairway widths. The USGA's mindset and formulaic fwy widths are not what one should consider a good maintenance meld and the reslt is less than stimulating golf. Thank MM (and MN) for making that one of the most exciting U.S. Opens in memory.

[Matt_Cohn]

Jim Furyk says:

"The greens are very severe, as severe as we've seen for a long time at a U.S. Open. ... A lot of the fairways are pitched ... You have to carve the ball to keep the ball in the fairway."

Are we talking about the same course?

[DMoriarty]

John, it is not a bad course, and it is a perfect US Open Course.  Brutally long, potentially punishing hack-it-out-rough (although when I saw it a couple of years ago they were having trouble growing the rough) and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast.   And amazing ocean view with colorful gliders hovering above.  What else could the USGA ask for?  In fact I wish they'd make it the permanent site for the Open, so then maybe they would all the great courses alone. 

[John Kavanaugh]

asking the great couses to be left alone is like asking your wife not to take a better lover.  why should she be denied because you can't bring it home....it is not her faullt.  Your selfishness and insecurities should not rob us, her and the world of the pleasure we all have earned.....

[John Kavanaugh]

Warning:  Just because some kid orders a shot of Lucid do not follow down the same path.

[DMoriarty]

asking the great couses to be left alone is like asking your wife not to take a better lover.  why should she be denied because you can't bring it home....it is not her faullt.  Your selfishness and insecurities should not rob us, her and the world of the pleasure we all have earned.....

Well if you want to put it that way . . .  It is more like asking one's wife not to take steriods, bulk up, grow hair on her chest, and have a sex change operation, all so she can be tough enough for one wild weekend in June.   If not wanting all that makes me insecure then so be it.

[Pete Lavallee]

and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast.    

Could 18 greens, each seperated into 3 distinct sections be considered character free? If they were flat maybe. I will agree that 18 double plateaux are repetative, but would think they are both difficult and do have some character, albeit completely manufactuered.

[DMoriarty]

and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast.     

Could 18 greens, each seperated into 3 distinct sections be considered character free? If they were flat maybe. I will agree that 18 double plateaux are repetative, but would think they are both difficult and do have some character, albeit completely manufactuered.

Fair enough.   How do you think the greens will work at US Open speeds? 

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

That is very hard to say as they have never been that fast in their brief 7 year life. They are very hard to read because they are so manufactuered; there is not an overwhelming prevailing slope due to the natural terrain. Dividing any green into 3 discrete areas and demanding the player hit that area is a major task; will the "these guys are good crowd" be able to accomplish that task under the ulimate pressure is the real question. I'm afraid only time will tell.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Furyk, one of the game's great putters, says, "The greens are very severe, as severe as we've seen for a long time at a U.S. Open..."

I guess he means as severe as at Oakmont, Pinehurst and WFW.  Does that surprise any of you? 

And if Furyk is right, aren't the guys in for a real long, difficult road next week? 

[Pete Lavallee]

Jim,

The severity comes in going from one section to another; they are seperated by very steep banks. Because every green is divided into 3 sections, we call it death by trisection.

[Adam Clayman]

That is very hard to say as they have never been that fast in their brief 7 year life. They are very hard to read because they are so manufactuered;

Pete, that is a bit disturbing. If the greens have never been put to the test, at that time of year, I'd say they are vulnerable, or at best, guessing how they will react to the June Gloom.

[Pete Lavallee]

Adam,

The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin  territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.

[Kalen Braley]

Adam,

The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin  territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.

Pete,

Excellent post.  You must do a lot of hanging out at the clubhouse and asking questions to get that kind of info.  Whats your secret to get em to talk? 

[Pete Lavallee]

kalen,

Some say I keep my ear to the ground; others say I've fallen and can't get up!

[David Stamm]

Adam,

The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin  territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.

Great info, Pete. Thank you for sharing it.