[DMoriarty]

Still trying to piece together how the course evolved.  Melvyn, those reports (particularly the first one) are very helpful. 

According to the NB website, in 1968 the golf course was expanded "beyond the March Dike to the west" and three holes were added while one of the original seven holes "was dispensed with" thus giving them nine holes.  Still trying to piece together how the course evolved.  Melvyn, those reports (particularly the first one) are very helpful. 

According to the NB website, in 1968 the golf course was expanded "beyond the March Dike to the west" and three holes were added while one of the original seven holes "was dispensed with" thus giving them nine holes.   One of the three added holes was the Redan.

The eastern border of the land added to the course in 1968 "March Dyke" which is described by Seaton as "a stone wall known as March Dyke."  Later in the report on the 1877 changes there is referenced to a rock boundary wall marking the western edge of the old course, so presumably this is the rock wall that runs West of the current 14th and East of the tee for the Redan.

So presumably the land added in March 1868 was something like the area bordered by the red line.  [This seems an awful small area for three holes even then, and the area to the east of march dike seems an awful big area for six or seven holes then, so I wonder about whether March Dyke wasn't the waterway visible to east of the red line, but have nothing solid to base this on.   Is the rock wall really known as March Dyke?]

So in 1868 the Redan had to have been a one shot hole.   Presuming the green was in the same location (I've never heard of the green being moved) there was not room for a two shot hole.   

Then in 1877 the course was expanded again, this time to the Eli Burn, and an additional 9 holes (5 out, 4 in) were put in this area.  Obviously, they had to be pretty short holes.   

From the descriptions I have seen, the green locations must have been something like the photos below.   My level of confidence that this is accurate is pretty low, especially about No. 6 which is described as playing West, but seems like it must have played southwest to me.  I am curious as to what if anything I have wrong. 



____________________________________

Rich,

What do you think of the report posted by Melvyn.   Doesn't it sound like a short hole comes after what you are calling Perfection, and that it plays over the wall to the redan side, before the Redan?

[Dan King]

Here is the timeline I developed the time we talked about North Berwick two years ago Sunday. It fits nicely in with the articles Melvyn posted:
I think what we need is a timeline of The Redan, The teeing area, the course itself and C.B. Macdonald. Part of the problem seems to be we don't have enough surviving information about the nine hole course that existed when Macdonald first came to North Berwick. It seems highly unlikely the Redan ever played anywhere near 266 yards, as almost everything written about it through the various configurations calls it a one-shot hole. It isn't clear if the 266 is an exaggeration or a typo.

1790 First record of golf played on the West Links.

1832 North Berwick Golf Club founded. Around this time a six hole course was laid out only going as far west as the March Dyke (close to the western points of today's third and 16th holes.) The North Berwick Golf Club agree to play by the St. Andrews Rules (except for a special rules for removing stones within the Quarry.)

1858 R&A rule: Tee off between six and eight club lengths of previous hole.

1868 or 1870 (conflicting dates) North Berwick expanded from seven to nine holes. The Gasworks hole, then the short sixth hole was eliminated and probably the Redan was added as the sixth hole. According to an eye-witness account by Mr. Edward L.I. Blyth, the new holes to make the course nine holes were three new holes south of the existing holes. Perfection would have been the fourth hole, the fifth hole: a short hole to the southwest corner (where the fourth hole on the Ladies course will later be) and the Redan. So the Redan was a short hole from the fifth hole (that no longer exists) to the Redan giving the shot to the green more from the southwest than the current shot from the northwest. 

1872 C.B. Macdonald plays golf on the nine hole course at North Berwick.

1875 R&A rules allow Conservators to build special teeing grounds. Otherwise, players required to tee off within eight to twelve club lengths from previous hole. It is unclear if a teeing ground for Redan was built then or closer to 1882.

1877 North Berwick expanded from nine holes to 18 holes, to Eli Burn. The Redan would have now been the 15th hole, but it is unclear where the 14th hole (Alps/Perfection or the former fifth hole?) was then so it is unclear how far the shot was to the Redan hole, or if there was a teeing ground.

1882 R&A rules changed, with all teeing ground now marked with markers -- no longer within a specific distance of previous hole.

1895 North Berwick expanded similar to the current configuration. The distance for the Redan is listed as 266 yards, but that seems to be an exaggeration by close to 100 yards. In a pro tournament there shortly after opening the expanded course, half of the scores to The Redan for the top finishers were 3s. Ben Sayers later that fall sets the course record 75, making a two on the 15th hole.

1899 Arthur James Balfour becomes captain of the North Berwick Golf Club, giving the West Links added fame.

1901 London Golf Illustrated publishes "Best Hole Discussion" listing the Redan as the second best one-shoter in Great Britain.

1902 C.B. Macdonald returns to Great Britain to "gather material, ventilating my original idea with various old golfing friends."

1906 C.B. Macdonald makes another trip to Europe, four months, returning with surveyors' maps "of the most famous holes: the Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole."

1908 The National Golf Links of America incorporated.

for more, check out the thread from two years ago:
Was CBM's the first "Redan?"

Cheers,
Dan King

Of course I'll give you $1,000. The golf that you have taught me has saved me that much a year in doctors' bills, and I am perfectly confident it will add years to my life."
 --Robert T. Lincoln to C.B. Macdonald with a $1,000 subscription for the National golf Links of America.

[Sean_A]

Oh yes, I remember that thread where Rich more or less states that Hutch got it wrong with the Redan.  Personally, I think the hole was quickly changed after 1895 because I don't believe for a second that Hutch got it wrong in his 1897(?) British Golf Links.  

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

David, Sean, and all other Redan junkies

Whatever "evidence" I have is detailed in the thread referenced below:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31636.0/

Look particularly at post #102 where Brian Izatt kindly posts my scan of the NB Golf Club history book, which clearly shows the Redan being designed as a par-4 for at least some part of the late 19th century.  On that thread (as on this one) I was only trying to raise questions, and not answer them.  To my knowledge, nobody has yet squared the circle that the available information seems to have put us amateur historians/CBM lovers in!

Rich

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Rich,

I took a look at that and at the descriptions and diagram from The Golf Book of East Lothian, and I don't think the hole ever played 266 yards.   GBEL establishes the 266 yard figure, but also notes that the Redan and the final three holes have not been changed.   As Brian noted, many of the yardages appear to be well off.   I suspect that they may have been still been measuring from green to green instead of tee to green, even though tees had been built.  Otherwise all the measures are substantially off. 

(Also, as to the website, it relies on a Hutchinson description of the course as changed in 1877, but the hole is listed as 210 in 1877. 

[Dan King]

If the Redan ever played as a two-shotter, it is highly unlikely it would have played that way during the periods C.B. MacDonald came to North Berwick. He first played the course in 1872, when it was a nine hole course, and returned in 1902 and 1906, after the course had expanded to its current configuration.

Cheers,
Dan King

So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[Tom MacWood]

I found this in HG Hutchinson's Famous Golf Links (1891):

[Rich Goodale]

If the Redan ever played as a two-shotter, it is highly unlikely it would have played that way during the periods C.B. MacDonald came to North Berwick. He first played the course in 1872, when it was a nine hole course, and returned in 1902 and 1906, after the course had expanded to its current configuration.

Cheers,
Dan King

So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

I agree, Dan--not impossible, but highly unlikely.

All the best

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

I found this in HG Hutchinson's Famous Golf Links (1891):

Thanks for that, Tom.  It puts some meat onto the stick diagrams that Bryan posted for me on the other thread.  That earlier posting confirms that the Redan was 210 yards in 1891, but also that it had been lengthened to 266 after Perfection was changed from two short holes into one long one (with a new green) in 1895.

You post also confirms that the 16th (Gate) only had one plateau in 1891 rather than the two which it has today, as well as describing how 17 would have played as a 540 yard 3-shotter with a 3rd played to the green shared with the 1st.  Good find.

Rich

[DMoriarty]

Rich,  I think if you take another look at that information you will see that the The Golf Book of East Lothian isn't entirely clear on the issue.   The hole wasn't 266 yards before 1895, and the The Golf Book of East Lothian notes that it was unchanged.     

And again, the yardages from the The Golf Book of East Lothian appear to be way off, but fit well if one measures from green to green, as opposed to tee to green.   So while the total length all the way around the course was over 6000 yards, but the actual length of the golf (tee to green) was something less than that.   

[Sean_A]

I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year.  It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time.  But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.   

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year.  It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time.  But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.   

Ciao

Sean, that doesn't leave much time for it to have been a two shotter, given that it was considered a one shotter between 1877 and the changes in 1895.   Is their any other indication besides the yardage listing in the Golf Book of East Lothian?  (The diagram only shows that it played over the wall, but it could have at 210 yards.)  Because those yardages are way off, and seem to work better green to green.

[Dan King]

Sean Arble writes:
I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year.  It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time.  But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.   

When?

When the course reopened in 1895 they had a tournament with many of U.K.'s top golfers there and the average score for the top finishers was 3. Would they have played the professional tournament from a more forward tee for some reason?

Cheers,
Dan King

The Redan at North Berwick is another fine hole which has been copied almost as often as the Eden at St. Andrews. The original hole can hardly be considered perfect, as it is too blind and there are too many bunkers which have no meaning, but the ideas embodied in the hole are excellent, and these ideas give an architect great opportunities of making interesting holes.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Sean_A]

Well, we have rich's account that the hole played as funky two-shotter and it does make sense to place tees near greens. 

Dan - I think Redan was a one-shotter for the pros tourney (didn't we establish that a few years back?), but the hole is probably shorter now - essentially sharing a tee on the Redan side of the wall with #4.  However, my memory of the pro tourney was the hole avergaed well over 3, but I could be wrong.  Somebody posted an account a few years back of the tourney which gave us some idea of how Redan played.   

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

Sean,

I have met Rich a few times, and while he seemed almost ancient, I don't think he is quite old enough to provide a first-hand account of how the course played in 1895.  He was at most a child then.  

I agree that it would have made sense for them to have put the tee near the green.   But this was after the rules change and so this was no longer a requirement.   So it is possible that the rule change may have opened the door to them to move the 14th green without messing much with the Redan, which was already considered one of the best short holes anywhere.   [As an aside, from the description of the new greensite on the 14th in the second report posted by Melvyn, I am not sure that the green was in the exact same location then as now.]
_____________________________________________


From the same report, I found the description of moving the 4th tee interesting. The tee was moved to the location of the old ironically named "Perfection" hole (when it was a pitch over the wall between 1877 and about 1895.)   Was the old Perfection green the current site of the 4th and 15th tees, or was it south of that point?    If it was south of the current tee near where the wall jutted more west then the Redan could have measured 210 yards but still played from East of the the wall.   (I don't think it could have in it's current location, but it is described as playing from east of the wall but was supposedly a one shot hole of 210 yards long.)  If so then the Redan would have played almost straight on.    To speculate further, this would explain Macdonald's description of "twist" in the creation of the great Redan hole. According to Macdonald the greenkeeper provided the key "twist" by placing the tee at an angle to the green.  

[Another sidenote about the 4th.  It seems some are assuming the Redan must have been longer because what became the 4th crossed it, but I think the hole must have played across in front of or maybe over the current tee, based on the location of the previous green.    Also, when the course was nine holes, this hole must have played to the teeing ground of the Redan (wherever that was) because they teed from the green.  So either this hole was very, very short or the Redan tee was further south than now.  Or the previous green was somewhere else.]

I still think that in the East Lothian Book of Golf they may have been measuring a hole-to-hole course rather summing the tee-to-green distances.  Is it possible that in the decade or so after the rule change many of these holes did not yet have a set tee box or teeing area?   When did tee boxes become commonplace?   Was it closely after the rules change, or did this develope over time?   It would have been kind of cool if the Greenkeeper could have put the tees anywhere from day to day.

Surely Dan King knows.  

[Sean_A]

David

Honestly, I am not that invested in what the Redan played like in 1877 or whatever.  I find it interesting and entertaining, but I don't know anymore than you or anybody else.  I just offer an opinion based on the info offered over the past few years.  I can see all sorts of possibilities.  In the end, what matters most to me is how the plays now.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I do agree that what matters most now is how the Redan plays today (and has played, for almost all of its life), but I also find it both interesting and illuminating to look at history to see how (and to speculate as to why) influential golf courses such as North Berwick (West) have evolved.  The move across the March dyke in 1869 (when the land for the 3rd green and Redan hole was acquired) was an obvious one, and one which gave the course 9 proper holes for the first time in its history.  That move in 1877 when the Club first ventured past the stone dyke that now defines the back of the tee on the Redan was probably not as obvious, as the maps posted on the other thread by me through Bryan Izatt shows, for anybody who knows the land.  The machinations that the Club went through before in 1895 they finally reached "perfection," including the hole by that name (the old version prior to this date was called "High Bent") are intriguing.  Regarding the 1877 course. it is not for nothing that, according to the web history, "One critic in fact designated it 'a good 9-hole course which has been tampered with'!"

As for the Redan, I think that the probabilities are that the hole was played for some undetermined time as a 266 yard par-4 (maybe even only a few years, or even less), but as that hole was too goofy even for North Berwick, the tee was established at its 192-yard position at or before the turning of the last century.  My guess is that when they played that tournament in 1895 that Dan cites, the pros refused to play the goofy new tee, and that it eventually faded away.  (There are, BTW, several instances in Scotland where the "medal" tees on golf courses are shorter than the "back" tees.  One example I have recently played is the 16th at Pitreavie, where the medal tee is ~190 uphill to a hard two-tier green, whilst the ladies tee is ~230, and there seems to be an even further back tee (~260) which I asume was part of MacKenzie's original layout).

Finally, the record indicates that the Redan played at 210 in the 1877-1895 period.  Looking at Google maps it seems that there was a tee, at about 210 yards (to the west of the stone dyke), at sometime in the past.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=north%20berwick

Cheers

Rich

[DMoriarty]

Stumbled across this early photo of NGLA's Redan by Edwin Levick (1869 - 1929) from NYPL.   I've also posted a photo I took a few years ago. 

[Brian Phillips]

 (There are, BTW, several instances in Scotland where the "medal" tees on golf courses are shorter than the "back" tees.  One example I have recently played is the 16th at Pitreavie, where the medal tee is ~190 uphill to a hard two-tier green, whilst the ladies tee is ~230, and there seems to be an even further back tee (~260) which I asume was part of MacKenzie's original layout).

Yes Rich that is because the ladies tee is a Par 4. But you knew that...

[Rich Goodale]

I did know that Brian.  The analogy to the Redan is in relation to the presumed back tee which would have been a man's par-4 now abandoned and hidden in the underbrush.  Maybe Marty can confirm or deny my presumption.

[Brian Phillips]

I really don't know why anyone is bothering to argue about it.  Looking at the plan created by Bryan I have no reason to not doubt it could have been a par 4.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The closest I have to a report on the course pre 1877 is the Third Great Match between Old Tom & Willie Park over the North Berwick Course on Tuesday the 4th April 1870. I have the 1875 report and the only other one is the report from 1895 of the extension. However, I attach the 1870 report for your information.



Melvyn

[DMoriarty]

Finally, the record indicates that the Redan played at 210 in the 1877-1895 period.  Looking at Google maps it seems that there was a tee, at about 210 yards (to the west of the stone dyke), at sometime in the past.

Rich,  I see what you are referring to, but have my doubts that this was the "210 yard" Redan tee.    From Blythe's reminiscence in the East Lothian Book:

The first extension of the green into the park beyond the west wall was, I think, in 1870. There were three holes, the first being in the neighbourhood of Perfection (presently the fourteenth hole); from there we played to the south-west corner of the park, to where the fourth hole of the ladies' green now is; from that to the Redan, which was a lovely shot.

So the green previous to the Redan (and therefor the redan tee) was in the southwest corner of "the park" at the site of the 4th hole on the Women's course.    I presume that his was down by that building that is there now,   If one looks just south of the 4th tee on Google one can see a few areas that may have once been greens and/or tees.   This would have made the Redan a more straight on shot.  

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=56.061079,-2.7428542&z=18&t=h&hl=en

[TEPaul]

One thing I'd like to say about a vast, vast difference of the original redan (North Berwick's #15) compared to any other redan I've ever seen and played is the massive hill or mound that virtually blinds its right side and certainly its entire right to left "kicker" from the tee.

Why did no other redan utilize that truly prominent feature of the original redan? Could it have been because when the redan first came to be copied in architecture the whole idea of blindness was becoming really controversial and going out of fashion?

[JESII]

Tom,

I don't have an opinion on the historical aspect...but would you agree that the blindness (and more specifically, what it is hiding) is as valuable as the big low side bunker STRATEGICALLY?

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