[Peter Wagner]

In an earlier thread Mike Young brought up an interesting question: is there a better business model for running a non-residential club for profit?  And if so, could it also allow for the elimination of committee governance? My early guess is yes and yes but I'm still processing.

In thinking about this it occurred to me that real estate based golf projects aren't evil but perhaps we have been developing with the wrong type of real estate.  What if you developed a course without residential homes but with commercial property instead?

Obviously this is already done with hotel resort courses so why not do the same thing with an on-property office building instead?

As an example, let's say we owned Rustic Canyon, a course many of you know.  Let's also say that when we were in the development stage that we pitched the idea to the zoning czars that we were going to build a private course but that the 5 acre tree grove across the parking lot from the clubhouse was to be zoned for a 5 story medical office building.

We would then either develop the office building ourselves or more likely offer a land lease deal to a local commercial developer and collect rent every month.  We would pick up a built in doctor/dentist member population, sell corporate dining memberships and have minimal impact on the golfing landscape.  The office space would rent at a premium because of the location which in turn increases our land lease.  Instead of 900 people living in 300 houses you might have 400 people working in one 5 story building.

I'm sure this isn't an original thought - does anyone know of an existing office building based course where the building or land was owned by the club?

- Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Peter,

I don't know if they are together or not, but there is such a place here in Salt Lake City.  There is a 27 hole complex that has golf holes on the outside of the property with business buildings on the interior of the area.

Its called StoneBridge.  http://golfstonebridgeutah.com/

You could probably get in touch with the managing group, but it seems from the limited entires to the entire complex that it was developed by one master owner.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Recently opened Butterfield Trail in El Paso was located in a business park during planning.

I think of the high rises in Miami as a similar solution.
Small building footprint, but high density.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Why would you be able to command premium rents, particularly when the development will likely be farther from a population base since there isn't much vacant space in developed cities/towns?  You think that enough doctors and dentists would pay a premium rent to be that close to their golf course?  I think that is a big assumption and any premium you might be able to command would be relatively modest compared to the increase in house lot value.

[Rich Goodale]

If your anchor tenant was a medical center, wouldn't it be hell trying to get a tee time on Wednesdays?

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I think it is a workable idea.
Have been working on one such tract for a large industrial developer for over 5 years.  Basically a core golf course which would take the water.....office park on course and industrial off the golf course, clubhouse area would consist of a health club, hotel such as a Courtyard and a restaurant such as a Houstons or Applebys....these are all integrated into one area around a small proshop.  I think it has been done before.  And I think you are going to see some more.  It has already gone through planning and zoning....many would rather have golf near work than near home.....

[Mike Lacey]

Ken Kavanaugh's Longbow Golf Club in Mesa, AZ is now the centerpiece of a buisiness park. 

The course is located at the end of the runway at Falcon Field, a general aviation airport that has signifcant buisiness and industrial properties adjacent.  It was originally built by McDonnell Douglas Realty Corp on otherwise unusable land they owned east of the factory where the Apache Longbow helicopters are built. 

MD was purchased by Boeing, who had much less interest in the venture.  The course was sold to the current owners.  They purchased adjacent land, redesigned and rebuilt the course, significantly altering the footprint and incorporated it into the design of the Longbow Buisiness Park. 

The property has alot going for it:  easy freeway access, adjacent to Falcon Field, 15-20 minutes from the Phoenix Airport, etc.  However, none of the commercial property has been developed as yet.  Fortunately, the owners appear to be very patient. 

[Garland Bayley]

Camas Meadows in Camas, WA is such a place. I haven't played it, but I hear the distances between green and tee are brutal. If you think walking past someones yard to get to the next tee is bad, try walking past a business park.

[Bill_McBride]

The TPC Las Collinas in Irving, Texas, just outside Dallas, is mostly surrounded by office buildings and a Four Seasons resort.  I think it's been pretty successful but no common ownership.  The golf course and the resort are tied together.

[RJ_Daley]

Similar concept I beleive was 3-M corp's golf course designed on the corporate campus.  I beleive golf course archie, Don Herford was originally a 3-M exec who was put in charge of a golf course project for the corp campus.  He got so into it, that he changed careers.  I don't think the course lasted.  I think it reverted back to nature trails and surrounds.  I could be wrong...

I once looked at a project from afar by reviewing the RTC sales portfolio of a project gone bust in the Savings and Loan scandals of the late 1980s.  It was Pine Creek in Colorado Springs.  It was 800 acres with240 acres of golf course, and several acres of PUD with much of that zoned commercial.  But, it also had residential.  I lost track of that one over the years, also....

Don't forget, you have to have sufficient parking lots for a medical arts or basically any kind of multi story office property.  So it would probably be conciderably larger than 5 acres...

But Peter, it seems to me by your posts that you are a real golf course development and management strategist.  You may drive your membership nuts, but I think they are lucky to have someone as engaged and curious as you seem to be.  I like the basic idea of the commercial supporting enterprise development as the capitalization catalyst in the golf development scheme.  Lots to think about there...

[Kalen Braley]

Does anybody know how well these type of developments are working?

Is the business space providing enough profits to help off-set the course costs?

[Peter Wagner]

Small building footprint, but high density.

Mike,
Yeah that's what I was going for, smaller footprint and higher density.  Golfers complain about homes completely ringing a course (low density) but what if we had high density in an area across from the say the 2nd fairway?

Why would you be able to command premium rents, particularly when the development will likely be farther from a population base since there isn't much vacant space in developed cities/towns?  You think that enough doctors and dentists would pay a premium rent to be that close to their golf course?  I think that is a big assumption and any premium you might be able to command would be relatively modest compared to the increase in house lot value.

Wayne,
Mikes challenge was to develop a non-residential private club and have it make a profit.  Under that scenario there would be no increasing home values to compare.  This idea isn't predicated on getting a premium on rent, that was just a guess on my part.

Ken Kavanaugh's Longbow Golf Club in Mesa, AZ is now the centerpiece of a buisiness park. 

The course is located at the end of the runway at Falcon Field, a general aviation airport that has signifcant buisiness and industrial properties adjacent.  It was originally built by McDonnell Douglas Realty Corp on otherwise unusable land they owned east of the factory where the Apache Longbow helicopters are built. 

The property has alot going for it:  easy freeway access, adjacent to Falcon Field, 15-20 minutes from the Phoenix Airport, etc.  However, none of the commercial property has been developed as yet.  Fortunately, the owners appear to be very patient. 

Mike L,
This sounds like a really interesting project.  The way PHX is growing it's just a matter of time before Fox Field are is over run by the community and then *poof* instant commercial center.

I have never been to Sand Hills but I've often wondered about the idea of having a course like that next to a small airport.  With the coming VLJ's (very light jets) I would think we are going to se a rise in 4-somes hoping in a HondaJet and blasting out to Bandon Dunes or Sand Hills for the day.  Sounds silly right now but I believe that day is fast approaching.  Next time you go to Bandon check out how many private jets are lined up at the airport.

Speaking of aviation and seeing your last name... are you related to Clay Lacey by any chance?

But Peter, it seems to me by your posts that you are a real golf course development and management strategist.  You may drive your membership nuts, but I think they are lucky to have someone as engaged and curious as you seem to be.  I like the basic idea of the commercial supporting enterprise development as the capitalization catalyst in the golf development scheme.  Lots to think about there...

RJ,
Yes as a matter of fact I do drive my members a little nuts.  I have found that I have to be careful in tossing harmless ideas around my club because they tend to turn into rumor and then I have to deal with stamping it out.  Last month I was looking at our three croquet courts (built to USCA Open specifications no less!) that no one uses and I wondered out loud about blowing them up and making something different.  Rumors flew and now it's something I'll be addressing in a member meeting.  Sheesh.

I'm happy you guys haven't kicked me out of here yet as this website gives me a chance to try an idea without it becoming yet another rumor at my home club.

Kalen,
Thanks for the link to the SLC project.

I'm wondering if developers might start looking at commercial golf instead of residential golf?  Maybe some sort of mixed use is the best answer?  I don't know but it's fun to speculate.

Best,
- Peter

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