[Walt_Cutshall]

I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?

I think you can have many strategic options available to you, and it is up to you to figure out which one is best for you that day. That is one of the greatest attractions about the game--putting all the variables into the computer and choosing among the options available to you.

[Matt MacIver]

I'd have to look at my cards for actual scores from my two summer rounds but I remember thinking "beautiful hole, bitch of a second shot if I'm left".  None of my group challenged the right bunker, and the further left one was the harder the approach.  I never got comfortable thinking I could keep the ball on the green when approaching from the left -- is it possible (esp. for a mid-high HC?)

Guess I generally agree that I could (should) have laid up short right and then had an at-worse bogey -- but where's the fun in that?  For such a short risk-reward hole I would prefer a potentially drivable green vs. barely carrying the bunker. 

All-in I really loved the look from the tee but found it (for me) harder than I expected/wanted/needed.  Humbug golf!

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie - 100% agreement re all of that.  BT 14 is obvious, 6 PD is more of a learned experience.

Our friends tend to work the same also.  And yeah, re advice, I only give it if asked.  My friends just tend to ask and then disagree.

TH

[Mike Benham]

I'll save the topic from rolling to the second page, but is the 6th a better match play or stroke play hole?

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll save the topic from rolling to the second page, but is the 6th a better match play or stroke play hole?

It works for both quite well.  I think it's a superior match play hole however, because the very best players are likely not going to take many risks on it, and can play it for a simple cautious four pretty easily.  That being said, a slip in execution makes all things possible.  Compare to match play, where if one gets it on or near green the pressure really goes on one's opponent... and vice versa if one lays up and opponent gets near green.... man in high winds also a 6 or worse could win the hole... I find that to be pretty cool.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I asked the question earlier but perhaps it got lost in the posts.

How bad is it to miss the green going long?  Worse than missing right?  I think left or short is obviously pretty bad but wondered if intentionally missing long in a winter wind is the play.

[Tom Huckaby]

I asked the question earlier but perhaps it got lost in the posts.

How bad is it to miss the green going long?  Worse than missing right?  I think left or short is obviously pretty bad but wondered if intentionally missing long in a winter wind is the play.

Kalen - it depends on where exactly you miss.  Long and left, along the axis of the green, is not that bad of a miss at all, assuming it doesn't go TOO long.  Anything besides that means down the bank, and that is not a happy place.  Of course anything long is also a lot better than anything in the bunker, I think, because not many balls tend to stay at the top of the bunker (relatively simple shot) but rather fall back down to the bottom (and death be to ye there).

It's also always going to depend on angle.  God help you coming in from the left in winter wind.  Tiger and Jesus combined could not stop a ball from there... so the best play then becomes punting it short and right... which is tough to make one's self do - ie play damn near sideways.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Kalen,

Missing long and to the right is not optimal because the slope up to the green becomes much steeper as you go from the front of the green to the back on the right side.  That said, anything to the right off the tee is better than anything to the left.  With the wind at your back, I like to play a driver or 3 wood just to the right of the green.  You have a pretty flat pitch/chip/putt from there. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - curious - how do you play it with wind against?  Does the shorter right fairway bunker become problematic for you as it does for me - thus making one play farther left than he'd like?

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I'm not especially long off the tee, but I don't remember the shorter bunker being that much of a factor, maybe because in the afternoon, we tend to move up to the green tees to compensate for the high winds (and give ourselves a little break).  I do remember playing in a threesome in the afternoon when the wind was very strong against and to the right.  We all hit it way right, past but well to the right of the shorter bunker.  We assumed we'd all be dead.  Not so; in fact, you have a great angle from over there (to the right of the dune) and, while there was some rough, it was the wispy variety. 

I see your point though--I can see that bunker pushing you to the left and then your margin for error on the drive becomes very small.  Even with the wind against, I don't like the idea of trying to hold the green from the left side.  That left bunker is death.  I've been in there once and thought, "I don't care where the ball ends up, I'm getting it out of here."  Well, 3 shots and one rainstorm later, I did just that. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - our experiences with that death bunker are sadly similar.

Re the shorty bunker on the right, well... I just do remember at least thinking I better hit this solid or I'm gonna go in that.  Maybe it's just bad memory.  But you're right in any case, there is a lot of room on the right, the rough isn't that bad, and it is a great angle.  That's something one figures out from experience as well...

I'm trying to think of a wind or a reason to intentionally play to the left.  I don't think there really is one... although with a wind against and from the right, a great wedge player might just rip one safely toward the bunker (ie left) figuring it's a no-risk tee shot and an approach he can handle.  But other than that, I have to figure if one ends up left it's a missed tee shot - but it doesn't take that much of a miss also to be faced with going over that bunker...

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Yeah, for a really great wedge player, this shouldn't be that hard of a hole (nor should BT #14, for that matter).  I'm not that player and have to try to find a way to give myself an angle where I can hit some kind of low chip or putt up the hill on #6.  BTW, I agree that PD #6 is a superior hole to BT #14 (although I too like that hole a lot) because of the way this hole reveals itself over multiple plays and because it's a little less severe. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Yeah, for a really great wedge player, this shouldn't be that hard of a hole (nor should BT #14, for that matter).  I'm not that player and have to try to find a way to give myself an angle where I can hit some kind of low chip or putt up the hill on #6.  BTW, I agree that PD #6 is a superior hole to BT #14 (although I too like that hole a lot) because of the way this hole reveals itself over multiple plays and because it's a little less severe. 

Tim - you and I could not possibly see this more exactly the same.  And I am not the world's greatest wedge player either.

I have had that shot from below the bunker and I wanted to cry for my mommy.

 

[John Kirk]

Another strategy.  Once again, power fade up the right side to 50 yards from center of the green, to a short pin.  Awkward lie leaves ball well above feet, making 45 yard pitch shot seem impossible.  Commence putting from that spot.

[Tom Huckaby]

John -oh hell yeah - I can't reach the green unless I get a real turbo-wind behind, so that's pretty much where I try to get to if I don't punt and layup farther right... and darn right I putt from that spot.

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

The left bunker immediately grabs the eye from the tee, burning a hole in your skull that stays until the ball drops in the cup. Downwind, it is the dominant feature to avoid if trying to drive the green. On the approach downwind from the right, it reminds you that whatever your choice of shot...it must be executed almost perfectly. Even though you may not see it, death looms large.

I truly believe that this hole is less difficult when playing into the breeze.

Either way, in either wind, I think the best option is to aim for the flag on #2 and try to snuggle as close to the far right bunker as possible. The approach from there seems to be the friendliest.

In other words, I agree with Tim...right is right.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wyatt - there's no doubt that right is right, and I'd also agree it is easier into the wind in terms of execution.... but unless one is super long, only in downwind is getting near to or on to the green realistic... thus the temptation only exists in a downwind situation.

Thus I think it's more fun downwind... it's harder and the choices are more vexing.  Into the wind it's more or less all about execution.

Whaddya think?

TH

[Eric_Terhorst]

Quite possibly the greatest short par four on earth.  It's spectacular on its own and it also fits perfectly into the context of the course as a whole.  The options in terms of ways to play it strategically are numerous, and the standard of execution required to have success is very high as well.  It's thrilling, maddening, challenging, awe-inspiring, all in one.

Tom,

I like the 6th alot, but methinks you doth gush too much.  This premature ejaculation leaves you little room for praise of even the 16th hole at the subject golf course, which not only "fits perfectly...numerous options...maddening" etc. but is a better short par 4, imo.

Last week I got to play the 18th at Inverness, a Ross masterpiece shortie whereon two major championships have been decided and which might be the equal or better of both of these. 

Calm down laddie, you'll give yourself a rash or something...

[Matt OBrien]

Having played this hole twice in my life, I would have to say it is the hardest short par 4 I ever played. I was fortunate to play with Ari Techner and he knows the course very well and he told me the smart play up the right side. I hit a perfect drive and what I thought was a good second shot. I walk to the green to find a ranger dressed in orange standing 30 yards behind the green looking at my ball   I hit another shot that  I thought was perfect and it runs off the front.   I learned that this green is not very deep and veryyy firm.  The next time i really screwed myself and went left. With no chance of holding the green I sucked it up and went over the green to a wall of hell. I dont think i ever played a hole that looks so easy yet play so hard. What a great hole!!

[Alan Gard]

One digression to #4 (stupid work travel is interfering with my giving this thread the reverence it deserves).  The setting is clearly special.  One can easily get lost in the setting.  I think this story illustrates this.  One playing partner once walked up to a ball in the fairway.  He quickly took his practice swings, and proceded to hook (he is a lefthander) the ball into the Pacific.  He was angry for a second until I shouted to him that his ball was in fact further up the fairway and that he had knocked my $4 Nike into the ocean.  He walked up to the other ball, no apology but just a shrug to me, and played away.  Not really relevant to the thread, other than the fact that this was in fact our threadstarter, Tim Bert (and for once he out drove me!).  And to be fair, he did find an errant shot I had hit off the #2 tee into no man's land near #7 from a previous round to, in a way, pay me back for the ball of mine he sent to Davy Jones' Locker.

Onto #6.  Great hole from start to finish.  As Tim notes, I have more than once played up the left side only to hit a lucky approach to give me a reasonable birdie look (of course, I never have made the putt).  It certainly wasn't a strategic play; if you play with me you'll know that most days not even God knows where my tee shot is going. 

Tim was also nice enough not to note the last time I played the hole where I made an 8 or 9 and actually fell into the bunker by the green...but still had fun doing it.

I think this hole creates the likelihood for many "stories" (both good and bad), which speaks a lot to the options provided by the design.

I also like how you are near so many other holes here.  You get a good look at #2, #3, #7, #8, #9 and #12...#6 seems to be the center of attention.  It's neat when you are out there with all the other groups taking their turn, but it is even more special to me on that 3rd round of the day when you have the place to yourself.  Very tranquil.

[Steve Kline]

Quite possibly the greatest short par four on earth.  It's spectacular on its own and it also fits perfectly into the context of the course as a whole.  The options in terms of ways to play it strategically are numerous, and the standard of execution required to have success is very high as well.  It's thrilling, maddening, challenging, awe-inspiring, all in one.

Tom,

I like the 6th alot, but methinks you doth gush too much.  This premature ejaculation leaves you little room for praise of even the 16th hole at the subject golf course, which not only "fits perfectly...numerous options...maddening" etc. but is a better short par 4, imo.

Last week I got to play the 18th at Inverness, a Ross masterpiece shortie whereon two major championships have been decided and which might be the equal or better of both of these. 

Calm down laddie, you'll give yourself a rash or something...

I haven't played PD but I have played Inverness and there is no way imo that the 18th is in the same league because for a short par 4 it is totally undrivable due to the bunkers that ring the front of the green. It's a 3 wood flip wedge every time. There are really no options.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Steve,

Re: Inverness' 18th, If you haven't played PD, then you can't really compare, but I beg to differ about a couple of things.  First of all, having infinite options does not by itself make a hole great.  How many options does one golfer need?

Second, we had four completely different tee shots on the day I played the Inverness hole, yielding one birdie, two pars, and a bogey, suggesting there is more than one way to skin the cat. 

Third, at the 325 yard tees we played, I'm sure some lengthy golfers would consider hitting driver.  Then they might even find the bunker from which Bob Tway won his major when he holed his recovery shot, and might even make a 2.  Payne Stewart also holed a shot from that bunker on the same day, so it's possible I suppose to make that ploy a strategic option.

Fourth, having only played it once, I'm sure a thoughtful golfer could consider "numerous" options for different pin placements, course conditions, match conditions, etc.  3-wood, flip wedge every time?  C'mon Steve, have some fun with the hole next time.

I guess my point is that if you put 100 knowledgeable, well-traveled golfers on #6 at PD, many would say it's a good hole, some would say it's great, and only one, if he were Tom Huckaby, would say it's the best short par 4 on the planet.  And he's played Cypress Point! 

And Steve, methinks you doth sell Inverness' 18th short.

[Cory Brown]

Talking about the worst places to miss, I had the good fortune to miss in the two worst places in the same round.  We didn't take caddies so I thought I could hit a good drive and have it chase up on or just short on the approach.  I smashed a perfect drive and was waiting for it to bounce up towards the green, but instead it bounced 90 degrees to the left and ended up short of the left bunker.  I was about three feet away from my dad's half snapped 3-wood.

The bunker is truly terrifying and there was no way I was going to land there so my second shot hit the green and ran about 30 yards over.  Chipped back, but was scared of going back towards that bunker so I didn't make it.  I tried to putt from there, but left it just short of the top of the hill and it rolled back down.  Three to get down from there.  A seven on a hole that I thought would be simple from the tee.  Left is definitely the worst place to be because you will probably end up being over anyway.

I loved this hole.  Not just a risk/reward, but also a shot placement hole.  I can't wait to play it again.

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric:

OK, greatest short par 4 on the planet may be stretching things.  But I feel very safe in saying it's on the short list.  And you know what?  16 is also.  I think in the end 16 barely misses out due to divot-filled collection areas, but that's a small quibble.  In any case, we'll discuss that when we get to it.

Inverness 18 is a great call; I have no issues with it being on the short list also.  Others might be 10 Riviera, 7 and 8 Sand Hills, 9 Cypress, heck that's just off the top of my head.  In any case I truly do believe 6 PD stands mightily with these.

Great post anyway - it did give me a chuckle!

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

I agree that the hole is more interesting downwind. I like the fact that it makes gorillas truly think about what club to hit from the tee. With a strong wind behind, the big hitter actually has to consider leaving a wood in the bag because of the severity encountered by hitting it past the green right.

To most that subscribe to the bomb and gauge gameplan it is difficult to convince them to grab an iron on the tee of a short par 4.

WH

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