[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmm....

I'd still take 11 downwind.

Into the wind that can be a freakin 2iron, as short as it is.  I know, I've played it as such.  But even outside the extreme like that, the problem remains that headwinds magnify side to side spin.. and that is NOT a green you want to miss to either side.

TH

[Matt MacIver]

Is this 16th the most quirky hole at PB?  Does it have the most rub-of-the-green factor? 

I initially didn't like this hole BECAUSE of the severe undulations in the fairways and not seeing a clear landing area to play a "safe" shot (including a flat lie).  But, like most things at BD, it's growing on me....

[Michael Dugger]

Rub of the green?

16th green is just plain brutal.  I have seen more over and down the hill on this hole than #6.

Par is a good score.  I also hit driver.  I want as short a shot into this green as possible.

[Sean Leary]

I'll be honest. The more I play this hole the less I like it. I love 6 and like 14 at Bandon Trails, but this one is jyst too severe.  I wish you could bounce it in from the land of 10000 divots....

[Joe Bentham]

16 is a MUCH easier hole into the wind.  You can actually stop a full shot on the green.....

Other random thoughts--
I think a divot filled collection area is a great greenside hazard on a short par 4.  Almost as diabolical as the hump on 15's green.

IMO the reason this hole gives people fits is because everyone is always trying to get it close from everywhere.  Play for the left greenside collection area.  From the fairway, from pin high right.  Try and make a 4 or at worst a 5.  Its a hard hole if your trying to make birdie.

The similarities between 6 and 16 end with the fact that they are 'card' short par 4's.  They play in opposite wind directions.  6 is all about preserving a decent angle into the green.  16 is mostly about thinking outside the conventional. 

[Steve Kline]

I've played five rounds at Bandon - none at PD - and 4 were in a moderate wind with the other over 30 mph constant. Playing in October I think we had the summer wind one day and the winter wind the others. I would almost always rather play a hole into a moderate wind on a links course (assuming I can still reach the green in regulation) because it provides better distance control when hitting to the green. Downwind is so much harder to judge the correct landing spot when the ball is running out - and sometimes you may not be able to hold the green at all. My one exception might be to a par 5 I want to reach in two.

[Tim Bert]

#17 is a par 3
208 from the black tee
189 from the green tee

The 4th and final par 3 on the back nine rounds out one of the finest sets of par 3s I've played.  The summer wind is usually coming against you from the left side.  It has played as both primarily a cross wind and a head wind on different days.  I've played just about everything from a 3-wood to a 7-iron on this hole, depending upon wind and where they've got the green tee on any given day.  The surrounding area from the tee is something to behold.  Much of the natural beauty comes from the gorse-filled dune behind the green that drifts into more of a natural looking sand dune further left in the distance.  (Side note: Is that dune being used as part of OMD and if so, will it retain its natural appeal or is it being shaped into something else?)

A ball struck to the right of the green really wants to feed onto the green, though depending upon the strength of the wind this can be hard to properly accomplish.  Ideally for all but the most extreme left pin positions I think one would want to aim at the right-center or right portion of the green, allow the summer wind to take it slightly more to the right, and then have the bank run the ball back to the putting surface.  The bunkers guarding the front of the green can be difficult, and in the strongest winds many of the gorse patches short, right, or long can come into play.  We've lost more than one ball off to the right side where there are some mowed down strips between rows of gorse.

The 5th, 10th, 11th, and 14th all have a lot of appeal to me, so it is hard to rank this hole individually ahead of any of the par 3s that have preceeded it, yet it is also difficult for me to believe this is the worst par 3 on the course.  I'll simply refrain from ranking them, but I'm interested to hear others thoughts on the order of preference.

My picture set of #17 is amongst my least favorite.  I've got some work to do here in 2009.

From the tee


A wider view


One last view in evening light


A really poor picture of part of the green (but I don't have great views of this green, so I'll share whatever I've got!)


A little better view of the green, though the light is quickly fading.  To the left, you can see the landing pad just off the green that will usually direct balls to the putting surface.


One more picture of the green with little light.  I hope you have a bright, HD screen.

[Alan Gard]

I'm the one responsible for more than half of the right gorse visits Tim references.  I've also visited the left gorse, the front bunker and pretty much everywhere else one doesn't want to be except for the really short bunker.  Tim even questioned why that was there and one of our playing partners promptly found it. 

This hole absolutely killed me the first two trips to Bandon (I'm pretty sure i averaged worse than double bogey).  As a lefty who generally draws the ball, this hole does not favor the left to right shot (at least in the summer cross wind).

While not as specatcular as the views on #10 and #11, this is still a picturesque hole, particuarly in the shadows of the late evening. 

I like the different challenge it presents after the previous two holes where just getting the ball onto the green from anywhere requires a lot of precision.  This green at least looks big after having played #16, and there are places to miss where one can recover for a par.

Since the hole has given me such fits, the tee shot on #17 is one of those shots I'm thinking about well beforehand.  But I'm thinking about it in a looking forward way as opposed to being scared of it (the tee shot on #1 just scares me).  It's one of my favorite shots to hit on the course but I can't fully explain why.

[Richard Boult]

I absolutely love this hole and find it very challenging and intimidating.  I found the prevailing wind from the ocean made this hole very hard to club. I bailed right during my 1st round and found that I could easily putt from way off the green. I nearly holed the putt.  I went for the sucker left pin during my second and paid dearly when I landed the deep frontside bunker.  I think the play is the right side of the green regardless of where the pin is located.

[Doug Wright]

I think the Redan-like #17 is my second favorite par three at Pacific Dunes after #11.  The placement of the greensite is just tremendous. The deep front bunker is visually intimidating and a real hazard should you find it, but one should really never be there since the play is well to the right. I've always found the conditions to be proper so that the Redan effect works to take the ball right to left down the green in varying degrees depending on where the ball lands and on the trajectory--just what one wants in this type of hole.  This hole is a real treat to play.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom D said once a great way to play a redan is to go long left and have an easy uphill chip back to the green.

On 16, I did this on accident after I pulled my tee shot and ended up long left.  The pitch shot was not too tough and I got it up and down for a par.

Otherwise the only way I can see playing this hole with the prevailing summer wind is to hit a hard draw(as a right hander) into the wind and hope you guess right to get it close to the hole as its a massive green so 3 putting is very easy to do.

[Michael Dugger]

All ya gotta do is pop about a 160 yd,  low trajectory shot over the really short bunker.  It'll hit, bounce bounce bounce and roll up on the green.

Don't ever attempt to fly it at the pin or onto the green, that's NOT how you play this type of hole.

Yet for some reason I can't ever do that.....

[John Kavanaugh]

I think that if Doak had known how Golfclubatlas would create this odd set of architectural intellectuals who would wrongly call this hole a redan he would never would have built it like he did.  I see the hole as a failure because if it is a redan it is a very, very poor one.  I should only see the hole for what it is and not what you book readers wish it to be.  Is there any evidence beyond the slope of the green that this is a redan?  Will the value of this hole decrease in your mind if a great redan is built at Old Macdonald?

[Tom_Doak]

John:

This is as accurate of a guess as you have ever made here. 

Originally the site for the green was very much north-and-south with the severe drop to the left -- the left half of today's green is all fill.  From the start we were trying NOT to build a Redan (because we've been there and done that) and we really didn't want any holes that were too easily comparable to other famous courses.

But, we tried two or three versions of a golf hole using the natural ground for the green site, and with the combination of the prevailing wind -- strongly into you but somewhat left-to-right -- and the hard drop immediately to the left of the green, everything we tried seemed impossible.  For the longest time, Urbina and I avoided even saying the word "Redan" as an option, but finally we agreed that we had to build a green that was banked from right to left -- not so you could hit the run-up shot described above, but so you could hit a big high fade riding the wind and have enough bank for a backstop to stop the ball.  So, the Redanlike 17th was born.

In the winter, I would try to play well short of the green and let the ball feed down there, but in summer I just hit a big high straight ball at the back left corner of the green, and let the wind blow it back into the bank.  Incidentally, that's the same way I play the Redan at North Berwick and the one at National.

[Tim Pitner]

Whether or not No. 17 is a Redan, it has qualities of a Redan and works very well, IMO.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but Nos. 17 and 18 have a slightly different feel to me than the rest of the course (which isn't to say they are in any way jarring or disrupt the flow).  I'm tempted to say they're brawnier, but holes like Nos. 4, 7 and 13 aren't lacking in brawn.  I don't know what it is, but I have a different feeling when I leave No. 16 green. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

Thanks, calling holes redans makes me feel like when ordering a venti at Starbucks.

[Kalen Braley]

JK,

I would agree, its likely not a redan, but it does have redan-like properties in both look and playability.

With this "odd set of architectual intellectuals" that have been talking about this hole, I think the comparisons to a redan are fair in terms of understanding the hole and gaining insight as to how to play it.  I hadn't thought about the high fade route, perhaps I'll try it next time.

[Tom Huckaby]

I can't see a situation where a left to right shot is a good play on this golf hole.  But it's interesting that part of the building does allow for a safety mechanism for that commonly played shot, whether intentional or not.

And it's also surely not a redan.  But it's also a pretty darn cool golf hole.  I like it.

TH

[David Botimer]

The 17th is definitely a tee shot with "high entertainment value".  Two players can hit the same club and depending on the angle of attack into the wind and the altitude of the ball get results 50 yards and more in disparity.  And having an entire foursome talking to the ball in flight IS entertaining!

The best play in the summer is attacking the left half of the green and let the slightly left to right quartering wind ride the ball safely to the green.  But don't forget to study the wind for the correct angle, as the safety zone is front right of the green.

The green itself is a paradox as the left half somewhat predictably rolls right to left towards the back left corner, while the right half is much trickier to read, especially with the summer wind moving the rolling ball quite a bit.

[Jason Topp]

And it's also surely not a redan.  But it's also a pretty darn cool golf hole.  I like it.

TH

Why not?  No l-r option?

[Tom Huckaby]

No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.

Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough.  But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.

 

[Doug Wright]

No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.

Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough.  But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.

 

The architect called it Redanlike, as did I. It has some features of a Redan but not all of them. 'Nuff said.

[Tom Huckaby]

No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.

Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough.  But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.

 

The architect called it Redanlike, as did I. It has some features of a Redan but not all of them. 'Nuff said.

That works.

I am godlike.  I am not God.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Of course that works.

I'm Christ-like in that I hang out with the sinners...I'm just not J.C. himself!!

[Tim Bert]

#18 is a par 5
591 from the black tee
575 from the green tee

This is one of those holes that has gotten harder for me over time as I've become more aware of just how dangerous it can be.  The first time I played the hole, the green tee was up on the high tee that plays from about 600 yards.  I birdied the hole to shoot 39 on the back nine (which matched nicely with my 54 on the front nine.)  That afternoon, I made bogey from the same tee and went home even par on the hole for the trip.

The next 3 times I played the hole, it was not up on the high tee (it never has been since that first trip.)  The yardage was probably about 550.  I made 9, 10, 9.  Welcome to #18 at Pacific Dunes.  I've since made two more pars on the hole, but I've come to learn that anything goes on the hole and much of it starts with the tee shot.

The summer wind is "assisting" on this hole, but that is a bad choice of words.  The wind brings all the trouble into play from the tee.  Terrorizing bunker left.  Bunkers on the right.  Sand dunes.  Some gorse.  It's all there to tally up the strokes in a hurry.  That being said, the fairway is pretty generous, so all you've got to do is strike the ball with some confidence to score.  The second shot is probably going to be mostly blind depending upon where your tee shot lands and where you want to go with the second one.  Everything on this hole feels like it was done in a much bigger fashion than the rest of the course.  Bigger does not equal better.  In this case, it just feels different to me.  The final blow comes when the player gets the green in sight for the first time.  One of the most unforgiving bunkers I've ever seen guards a shot missed to the right.  There are plenty of places in that bunker that allow for recovery, but there is also a small portion that leaves you feeling hopeless.  It's an "aim left and take your chances with the other trouble" bunker.  The green is well protected by bunkers on both sides, and also deep, but there is plenty of room to run your shot into the green from the air or the ground.

In recent trips, I've gotten too hung up on completing a score on this hole to really appreciate it like I did the first time around.  No experience was worse that the third time around in 2005.  I stepped up to the 18th tee needing par to shoot 87 despite an earlier quadruple bogey, double bogey, and a 10 on #4.  I had not yet broken 90 on the course in 5 previous tries.  I needed only double bogey to do so.  I walked off the course with a 91 that round.  My love-hate relationship continues with the course to this day.  In 9 tries, I've yet to get it done on the course that I adore so dearly.

If anyone has any nice photos of the fairway bunker, please feel free to post.  I'm usually too busy trying to hit out of them to take photos.

The view from the tee


The approach shot to the green


Another view of the approach from further right.  The bunker on the right is looming from this angle.


From inside the most angry of all bunkers on the course


Looking back at the beautiful green site - if this doesn't make you want to head directly back to the first tee, then I'm not sure what will.



Feel free to discuss the 18th as well as the course in its entirety at this point.  I've got a few more photos that I'll share next weekend with differet views sweeping across the course and we'll see who can identify the holes and views.  After I finish posting the miscellaneous pictures of Pacific Dunes, we'll get started on the Bandon Dunes thread and see if we can generate similar interest in the discussion.  Then I'll finish the trilogy later this summer with Bandon Trails.

   

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