[Patrick Hodgdon]

Forgive the newbie here if this has been covered before.

I was curious what the board thinks in terms of what the best "winter" destination was these days in terms of clubs Northerners join to play during the time their regular clubs are closed mostly Nov-April and what makes them so.

What is the best golf course in terms of Architecture? In terms of most fun to play?

What is the best development? Best development company? Best just plain old golf club?

What is the best value or bang for the buck?

What is the best location or destination?

[John_Conley]

Patrick, that question is so wide-open that it is almost impossible to answer.  I know one guy that joined the Harbor Club (near Cuscowilla and Reynolds Plantation) because it is one of the only clubs in the Southeast that allows anytime walking.  The course is a blast to play too, even if it isn't as solid architecturally as Cuscowilla.

You've spent several years in Naples.  Some people love that lifestyle.  As you know, the club at Bonita Bay is quite a bit different than Calusa Pines or Naples National. 

I've never been, but I've heard the weather in Phoenix is superior to Florida.  Tons of courses there too, so obviously some folks vote for Arizona as best.

Best value?  How about free golf for life on the par 3 courses at the Villages?  Think about it.  As you get close to dying who wants to play 7000 yards anyway?

Good questions, but I don't think you'll get easy answers.

[cary lichtenstein]

Patrick:

John is correct, your question needs to be narrowed down in scope so we can help you.

For example in my area, West Palm Beach/Jupiter, Florida you can get housing and fine golf for as little as $150,000 for the house and $4000 annual dues with no initiation fee and a $1 nassau or you could buy a starter home next to Tiger for $25,000,000 and join the Bear Club for $350,000 with annual dues probably close to $30,000 and play with Michael Jordan who will play with you for whatever $ you want or "to your choke point"..,

Give us a little direction

Cary

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Sorry guys, your right.

Coming from Naples and working at Calusa Pines, a great top 100 course, I have always been curious how it stacks up against other "Winter" clubs.

Is the Bear's Club in Palm Beach worth the $?

Are places like Estancia or The Madison Club "good" golf clubs with great/excellent amenities that make them better?

John in terms of our conversation what make a place like Grenelefe fall apart after being considered the best? Are there other courses this happened to?

How about this as the new narrowed question to answer, if money wasn't an issue where would you join (throwing building your own somewhere) and why when choosing a Winter course/club/development?

[cary lichtenstein]

Patrick:

I guess you want a comparison between Calusa Pines and the Bear Club.

Let me tell you about the Bear Club and you can make your own comparison. $350,000 to join, if you leave you get 70% back once your name rises to the top of the exit list.

They have a mandatory caddie program, I think it is $70 or $75 per person.

Dues run around $25,000 maybe a little higher.

It is strictly a first class golf club, no pool, tennis, spa etc.

Starter homes around the course go for $5 million. Lots of CEO's there, big bucks, toss in a few billionaires. I believe someone told me recently that 4,000 rounds per year is what they do.

Pretty big gambling games, but JN has toned that down recently, tossing out one of the ringleaders, but with Micheal Jordan building or buying a house there, some of the games will have no limit.

The course is beautiful, tough and can beat you up.

[John_Conley]

Patrick, I just drove back from Gainesville.  In the Ocala-Brooksville area you have wonderful private clubs:

* Black Diamond Ranch (two courses)
* Lake Jovita (getting closer to Tampa)
* Golden Ocala
* Ashley Farms (new WCI, appears to be growing in)
* CC of Ocala
* Southern Hills Plantation
* Juliette Falls

Nearly equal daily-fee courses:

* Dunes at Seville (undergoing changes)
* World Woods
* El Diablo
* Golden Hills (just bought by WCI I think)
* Brooksville CC

...and more.  From a golf standpoint it is terrific.

On another hand you have the Lake Oconee area.

* Port Armour
* Harbor Club
* Cuscowilla
* Great Waters
* Oconee Club
* Reynolds National
...and several more.  Is that better or worse than Ocala?

The answer to where people go has little to do with golf since there are wonderful options in many places.  Old Memorial is as 'good' of a club as Calusa Pines, although some women might disagree because they aren't playing there.

People at Bonita Bay have access to five excellent golf courses and a huge membership with tons of low handicap players.  From a social standpoint this may be far superior to Calusa Pines.

Money to burn and I can join/play anywhere I want?  If I liked the Carribbean I might say the Abaco Club or Green Monkey.  How about Mid-Ocean Club as a nice place in the winter?  I'm sure I'd be extremely content playing regularly at Hideout, which you and I discussed.

What happened at Grenelefe?  Easy.  It is remote and the resort suffered mightily as Florida saw other similar resorts built.  Where once you had Innisbrook and Doral in competition, today you have Orange County National, Champions Gate, Reunion, PGA at Port St. Lucie, the World Golf Village, and lots more.

Like many developments, the housing component was thriving until fully built out.  Mainly attracting retirees, a new wave hasn't replaced those that die off.  Consider this...just 15 years ago a decision was made by members that they needed another course and Diamondback was built across the street.  Not owned by Grenelefe, but it was developed by Grenelefe member/residents.

I'm giving you a non-answer, but not to be difficult.  There isn't one answer to your question, but several and that answer will vary depending on who you ask.  Naples is not West Palm is not Scottsdale and so on.

[Lawrence Largent]

Cary,

Would you care to name some of the courses in your area that are in that price range 40G with 7G dues. I know that alot of the clubs in that area have dropped there rates but I didn't realize to that extent.

Lawrence

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

Would you care to name some of the courses in your area that are in that price range 40G with 7G dues. I know that alot of the clubs in that area have dropped there rates but I didn't realize to that extent.

Lawrence

PGA National is pretty much in that category, 5 courses to boot.
Eastpointe has a decent course, although the housing is pretty old
Johnaton Landing has 2 Fazio and an Arthur Hill course

On the non equity side, you can join Greg Normans Jupiter CC for $5000
for the year and if yu are a resident of Palm Beach Gardens, you can join JN's PBCC for about $4000.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Yea I guess I was just curious to hear different opinions as to why someone would rather go to Naples or Scottsdale or Palm Beach or Palm Springs. I know it was a broad question and was hoping for conflicting answers actually.

[Gary Slatter]

Patrick, too many answers for your question.  My first request would be to know what their summer course is, then I could narrow it down to several hundred enclaves.

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