Are crowned greens a major threat to both good and marginal shots ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

They would seem to make both aerial and ground approaches far more difficult.

They would seem to make recoveries far more difficult.

Are crowned greens a significant defensive feature ?

Are they THE most significant defensive feature at the green end, understanding their feeding nature and tie in to their surrounds ?

[Greg Murphy]

Patrick,

At a relatively short local course, with almost no trouble off the tee and not a whole lot of trouble around the greens, it always surprised me that scores weren't really, really low when the best club pros played their events there. I asked one pro who had for many years dominated his colleagues (a former Canadian and Asian tour member), winning just about every time he teed it up, why scores weren't super low. Crowned greens was his answer. I think he would answer yes to your question: crowned greens are a major threat to all but perfect shots aimed at the flag. He said crowned greens really force one to shoot away from the flag, making it tough to get a wisely played shot tight to the hole, meaning not many short birdie putts and marginal shots that are either deflected off the green or leave a putt with an initial climb ending on a downhill and/or sidehill trip to the hole.

Crowned greens are capable of being a very significant defense at the green end, perhaps as you suggest, THE most significant feature or even a LONE defense, kind of like the toughest hole in miniature golf, the volcano.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I think that crowned greens are the best defense against the onslaught of technology and low scores.  They make you play precise iron shots into green.  It penalizes a marginal or poor shot by presenting a difficult chip or pitch instead of a 50 foot lag putt.  Good players can two putt from 50+ feet most of the time while a tricky chip or pitch to a crowned surface can become a knee-knocker when they think about what can result from a poorly played shot.

It's all about making players think.  There is a different mentality when you stand in the fairway even 100 yards out when you look at a small crowned target.  The brain starts to work and everything tightens up a little bit. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

No question they are a great defense. The question is, do you want to defend very many, or any, greens that way?  Statistically, I would say that less than 0.1% of players have the game to overcome a small, crowned green.  Is it right to design a target that is essentially unachievable to 99.9% of golfers?

Recall that according to the USGA to have 2/3 of scratch golfers attain a green, it must have 14% of both depth and width of the approach shot yardage.....i.e. about 22 yards wide and deep for for a 150 yard approach shot.  For handicap golfers, that would be 23 yards wide and 33 yards deep.

Dividing the entire green with a crown halves depth and perhaps width.  Essentially, they are impossible to hold for almost all.

Frankly, I would design perhaps 1 or 2 crowned greens for an entire course, for variety, and only on short approach shots. I would put it on the scoredcard/yardage book/GPS as an homage to "Pinehurst style greens" or otherwise, golfers would just be plain pissed.......

As an alternative, doesn't a small raised tier on a larger green accomplish the same thing when the pin is placed there, but allow the ability to have the hole play more reasonably most of the time?

[Greg Murphy]

Jeff,

Let's say you have a squarish 90' x 90' green. Imagine it divided into 4 quadrants and each 4 quadrants divided 4 ways, so you've got a green divided into 16 equal square sections. How big would you build your pimple (one square, two squares?), how high would you raise it (would the sides or top of the pimple itself be puttable or would it act more as a hazard within the green?), and where would you put it (e.g., front, back or middle of green?).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Greg,

The size would depend on the general length of the approach shot.  I can see sizing a "sunday pin" less than the USGA size recommendations, maybe by 80% or so.  So, if it was a 120 yard shot, basically 12 x 12 yards.  It would also depend on the wind - into a prevailing wind, I might reduce depth more for the ability to spin a shot.  With the wind, I might reduce width more than depth.

As to location, that also depends on the wind. I tend to make my Sunday pins for long holes near the back of the green and short holes near the front.  I also tend to put about 2/3 of the Sunday pins where the wind blows - i.e., if it blows to the back right of the green, that is my favored spot for the sunday pin. 

If I can't get it there, then it is usually somewhere on the downwind side - so few players are comfortable aiming out over a hazard, so allowing them to use the wind to aim at the safest part of the green and work it to the hole makes sense to me.  The more comfy they are, the more likely they are to play aggressively and then hang themselves with a too risky shot.

[cary lichtenstein]

Let me give you my perspective:

Crowned greens for the better player defend par well and make for a challenging round. They do slow up play and are make you grind all day. The Ritz here in Jupiter has a number of crowned greens and/or crowned areas within greens.

When it gets windy and the greens dry out, the difficulty increases. Sometimes it gets a bit stupid because you have to defend so much you make bogey with 2 well hit shots on the par 4's, etc.

For the average player who can't control his chip shots (because he is not hitting any greens anyway), it becomes a long frustrating day. Usually these guys don't even know its bad architecture, they just take their double and triple bogies and mumble.

I played Pinehurst #2 only a couple of times and was never in love with the course and that is probably the granddaddy of crowned greens. I watched my wife on the 1st hole, about 20 feet above the hole, then chip back from 30 yards and then do it all over again. She picked up, mumbled something I can't write here, and we went on to the 2nd hole.

She would never go back there, but loves Tobacco Road and would go back there tomorrow. She can play, she is an 11 handicap, so whatever........

[Greg Murphy]

Jeff,

Thanks for your thoughts. I gather your goal for the higher area is for it to play like a small crowned "green within a green", i.e., to function as a challenging pin placement, rather than a hazard within the green. One more question. Do you typically design the tier to fall off on all sides?

[John Moore II]

Pat--How crowned are you talking about? Because Pine Needles and Mid Pines have crowns, but I would consider each of them very fair and able to hold a reasonable shot. #2 on the other hand, is quite more difficult (but it has been discussed how they got such a crown on this site many times) What I am trying to say is that a slight crown and run-off near the edges can be very reasonable as far as difficulty when putting a pin near the edge. It only become the 'major threat' like you speak about when the crown becomes extreme.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

Thanks for your thoughts. I gather your goal for the higher area is for it to play like a small crowned "green within a green", i.e., to function as a challenging pin placement, rather than a hazard within the green. One more question. Do you typically design the tier to fall off on all sides?

Greg,

That all varies. They are intended as a green within a green, but can be up, level and separated with a ridge, or even sunken (playing away results in a scary downhill putt you can't get close). I rarely do a fall away or crowned section, since its even smaller than the whole green, but I tend to put the uphill slope towards one side of the fw or the other so that coming in from one angle might give 2% up slope to stop a shot, but from the other, it would be closer to 1% or level, so stopping a shot is much harder.

[John Shimp]

Holes with tough crowned greens require some short game sophistication (usually you need to hit a low spin wedge or a running shot with touch to stay atop). They are usually not birdie holes as it takes a perfect approach to sit tight on the crown.  The runoff nature of the green leaves marginal approaches farther from the hole than a typical green and maybe not even on the green.  I believe that most strong/great courses have at least a few holes with greens that would be described as crowns or have crown green like pin placements on parts of the greens.  Golfers who complain about crowns tend to be those that are too concerned about their score and expect bogey at worst if they hit a decent approach.  These types are quick to think of challenges as unfair.

Pinehurst 2 may take the crown concept to the extreme (lots of holes with crowns and some quite severe crowns), but most golfers I know still love to play there.  Compared to most other truly great courses #2 is easier in other major aspects of the game (ie. relatively easy driving course, no water to contend with, little OB, the chance to hit your approach short of the green but straight and make an up and down, etc.).  But, you've got the crowns as the major defense and must play short shots wisely and expect a few holes of frustration.

[BCowan]

They would seem to make both aerial and ground approaches far more difficult.
Yes
They would seem to make recoveries far more difficult.
No, they would reward an excellent chip/bunker shot.
Are crowned greens a significant defensive feature ?
I think they serve a great function and I love them!  Drain well, easy on the eye's, and reward great iron play
Are they THE most significant defensive feature at the green end, understanding their feeding nature and tie in to their surrounds ?

hard to say, land type would seem important

[Niall C]

Patrick

Agree with Jeff, effective but not one to over use. Personally I don't find them very inspiring, particularly the longer approach shot. Indeed having a conversation with a mate of mine in the pub the other night and we discussed Dundonald (Kyle Philips design) and without any prompting from me he said the  same thing about the approaches to quite a lot of the Dundonald greens.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

High Pointe had two pretty severe crowned greens -- at the 3rd and 14th holes.  The 3rd was bunkerless, the 14th had a bunker back right to keep your ball from running into some bushes.

I've never built another green quite like those.  Certainly, we've built many with internal contours that you had to putt up and over to get from one side to the other, but not where the edge of the green is low all the way around.

The thing I like about crowned greens is that they turn the concept of "short-siding" your approach shot on its head.  When there's a big contour in the middle of the green, it serves as a backstop for short recoveries from the same side as the hole, and an obstacle for recoveries after a wild shot to the other side.  For that reason, I think it's neat to have at least one of them per course.

[Nigel Islam]

The par 3 at Brickyard inside the track is a great example of this. That hole is brutal, and I believe bunkerless.

[Brent Hutto]

The thing I like about crowned greens is that they turn the concept of "short-siding" your approach shot on its head.  When there's a big contour in the middle of the green, it serves as a backstop for short recoveries from the same side as the hole, and an obstacle for recoveries after a wild shot to the other side.  For that reason, I think it's neat to have at least one of them per course.

Dang, you took the words right out of my mouth!

I learned to play on a course that had tiny pushed-up greens (like Pebble Beach, Harbor Town size or less) but they were grassed with Common Bermuda so during most of the year were slow and grainy. Heck they still are today for that matter I just don't play there much.  The grain tended to point downslope so it accentuated the fall-offs.

I'd say along with a handful of flattish greens they were a 50/50 mix of crowned and front-to-back sloped. Either way, it took me a while upon moving to more modern courses to grok the whole "don't miss on the short side" concept. When a hole was cut five paces from the right-hand edge of the green with the edge of the green well below the hole and the middle of the green a foot or two above it, there was no choice but to be on the short side. Even if you're in the rough.

My teaching-pro buddy always said that was a perfect course to learn to the game on. Very few significant water features, not much OB, wide fairways. But you either missed on the smart side or made double bogey. You either learned how to chip (from the rough) or use putter (from the fringe) or you made bogeys. And if you did occasionally get a ball in the same area of the green from the hole your birdie putt would be quite short and makeable.

That combination of crowns and front-to-back tilts also put the lie to the old adage about "high handicappers should always take one more club than they think they need". A well struck "one more club" could be a huge number on some of those holes. I had to learn to replace silly rules of thumb like that with more thoughtful planning on a shot-by-shot basis.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

I think it depends a lot on the length of the holes and what type of approach is required. My home course has all crowned greens, some more, some less, but they all retain that common feature. It has 6,500 yards from the championship tees and it is a usual venue for proffesional tournaments (we have just been selected by the PGA Tour to host the 2015 Q School for the Latin American Tour). It is certainly not the same an approach shot with a long iron into a small, crowned green, than a short wedge approach. Difficulty also depends on the size of the crowned greens. Short holes may have smaller greens, since they will require only short approach shots. In my view it is one of the most interesting characteristics of our course, which rewards accuracy in the approach shots, rather than length from the tee.

[Rob Curtiss]

I think they are a major threat for a marginal shot.
Last year I played at Sara Bay after a qualifier tournament ( I think an Amateur of some sort ) and the greens were crowned but also running at a 11-12 on the Stimp.
I was hitting my driver right down the middle ( hit 12 of 14  fairways ) but iron distances were not consistant.
Whether I was short or long- I seemed to roll off the green and spent the whole day chipping back on .
We even had 1 guy putt off the green because the hole was right next to the ridge and he hit his putt to far and it rolled off.

Being a 10-12 handicap and having only a marginal iron game- it was a major threat

[Peter Pallotta]

As others have noted, I like them for their challenge and interest and I like them in theory; but in practice I know of no other feature that can singlehandedly so widen the gap/scoring between the good golfer and the average one. Have fairways as wide as you want, have absolutely no water or OB anywhere, make fairway and greenside bunkers as shallow as frying pans -- but if you have a whole bunch of crowned greens the course's slope rating is going to be high.

Ironically, I think crowned greens (for the average golfer) can also lessen a golf hole's interest. My local course has one, at the end of a relatvely short par 4, a slight left to right dogleg with trouble on the insde. I have sometimes toyed with the idea of taking less than driver off the tee, but I've learned not to -- because no matter how well I drive the ball or how well positioned, I've found that if I'm coming in with anything more than a 9 or a PW, I can't hold the green. And so the hole has become humdrum - grab the driver before I've even stepped off the last green and hit it as hard/far as I can, anywhere at all as long as I can approach with a PW. 

Peter

[Carl Rogers]

Does the crowned green force all to use the high spin pro ball?
I think so.

[Tom_Doak]

Does the crowned green force all to use the high spin pro ball?
I think so.

On both of the holes at High Pointe I would try to play the ball short of the green and let it run up, to avoid a severe deflection.  Both greens were open in front, and if the ball didn't bounce up, short was the best place to miss. 

The approach on the 3rd was generally long [it was 450 yards] so most people were reaching it on the bounce by necessity and not by choice, but the 14th was under 400 yards and I would commonly play a punched 6-iron instead of hitting 8 or 9 onto the green on the fly.