[Tom Huckaby]

Let's just say that an Aliso Creek would do very well in San Jose.  Or at least I think so.  There would definitely be a segment as John S. describes who don't think it's real golf... but there would be many for whom it's all they need or have time for.

PG Muni is a perfect example.  A couple idiots named Pieracci and Huckaby are leaving San Jose at 5am tomorrow morning in order to play said back nine before a larger round later in the morning.  So yes, people do stop by.

 

[John Keenan]

Matt

I think Tom H made a very good point that challenging is not critical. In fact I would propose that too challenging would hurt a large segment that 9 hole courses depend on. Women's groups (my wife and her friends will ONLY play 9 hole courses) as well as people learning the game. The challenge is to design a course that gives the better or "real" golfer a good outing yet allows for others to enjoy as well. The GCA dilemma

Tom H   I am with you on Dublin I love it but hard to get others to play and I live in the East Bay. They just do not see it as real though in general it kicks their butts.  A fact conveniently overlooked. Enjoy your golf outing and hope the weather is good.

John 

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the 9 hole courses I've played had something in common, and I think this probably applies to almost all 9 holf courses, i.e. they were just about the golf. No fancy clubhouses (just functional ones); good routings and easy walks (even if carts are available); decent and golf-based maintenance (no waterfalls or bunches of flowers or pristine conditions anywhere); and golfers, mainly, who are mainly there to play golf and to play it quickly (even if they welcome beginners and younger folk).  

A good deal, all around

Peter

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

                                                       Define challenging.

Anthony

[John Keenan]

Peter that is a good point simplicity seems to be a common thread. Is that the same with the 9 hole private course in Michigan?  I cannot remember its name but I believe Keiser (sp?) built it.

I would suspect the decision to be more simple also helps the economics.

[Peter Pallotta]

John - yes, I think so. And maybe it's a chicken-and-the-egg thing: IF a 9-hole course is being considered, it's being considered because the developer's interest and his "business model" is based on golf alone, i.e. on making sure that the GOLF pays for the golf course...and then everything flows from that. 

Peter

[Tony_Chapman]

You mean they make 18-hole courses?

Matt -- As a Nebraska boy, I can vouge for the 9-hole variety of golf. Heck, I'd venture to guess that about 75% of the courses in the Cornhusker State are of the smaller variety. The mostly involve a farmer who donated land, Mr. Anonymous, some tractors and volunteer labor by the folks in the town to build it. That, right there, is a cheap business model.

Jason and Alan, mentioned Friend CC in Nebraska which I have a dear fondness for because some folks on my mom's side of the family helped to start the course in the late 60s. Many other wonderful tracks go down Highway 6, including, Milford and Sutton.

I think it'd be a great business model if you could build 9 (or 10) greens, and 18 sets of tees so that some holes can be played differently if you wanted a second trip. And, especially in a metropolitan area, you could really distinguish yourself with a wonderful practice area and maybe even a three holes in the 50-100 yard range for juniors. I'd think you could do this on 75 acres pretty easily.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

My experience has been -- outside of Mike Keiser at The Dunes Club -- developers build 9-hole courses because golf is not a priority among the residents if it is a housing community, the amount of land available can only accommodate 9 holes.

Anthony

[Matt Varney]

Tony,

Great advice on how to approach the model and the amount of land needed.  I have a couple pieces of land in mind that roll nicely and have some trees and meadows.  The residential development is only a consideration to offset the costs involved for those players that want to live on our near a course that has a unique design and is different from all the other clubs and courses in town. 

I understand the course superintendent, operations and clubhouse costs that need to be factored into the model to make it work and be profitable.  I think if you make it affordable and available to many as a quality golf experience that only takes 2 hours it will work.  The other big thing is selling memberships to the facility that are for playing as well as practicing.

[John Sheehan]

John S,

          I played Tam O'Shanter a couple of dozen times, what a unique, fun and challenging course.  Those Seattle summers are great for getting 18/27 holes in after work.

Here is the google earth view....  http://www.golfflyover.com/Default.aspx?id=3f7de1ef-210f-4a3a-9cc6-129cbe557762

The sixth hole had the dual green, made the hole play quite differently.

Craig,
Thanks for posting that link.  It was a fun course.  I didn't know much about GCA back in those days, so I have never really thought to analyze the course; but it did have some fun holes and some interesting angles.  I loved the 2nd hole because I couldn't hit a draw back in those days, and every once in a great while I could pull one off.  I felt like I had really accomplished something. I can't tell you how many times I hit my second shot out of that fairway bunker on the outside of the dogleg (which topic has been discussed here in a pretty interesting thread by the way).

Looking at that overhead brings back a lot of memories.  Some of them even good ones!  I've played in some wicked weather over the years; but perhaps one of the more memorable ones was at Tam O'Shanter during a ferocious storm.  As you know, you don't play in a lot of wind up in that area very often.  This storm featured 60-MPH winds.  Three trees fell down during our round - seriously.  One par 5 with the wind saw some unbelievably long drives; but by comparison the short par-3 Third hole, which as I recall played somewhere around 120 - 140 yard demanded a 3-iron that day and I should have hit the 2-iron. 

[Sandy Smith]

I think that a 12 hole course would be the best . You could have 6 holes a side and the combinations of 6,12 and 18 holes are there.

[Tim Taylor]

There's a nice nine holer here in Northern Virginia that's part of the Broad Run Golf and Practice Facility. Here's the link to the course info:

http://www.broadrungolf.com/course_information.html

It's a Rick Jacobsen design. Rick also has designed two of our better 18 hole daily fees - Bull Run and Augustine. If I didn't belong to a club and lived closer to Manassas I'd play Bull Run a lot. It's a "real" course at par 35 and 3100+ yards.

At my home course, you can play the ninth tee is adjacent to the second green, creating a handy three hole loop - a par 4, a par 3 and a par 5. Additionally, 15 returns to the clubhouse making for a nice 6 hole loop on the back.

I don't know how the 9 hole idea would work, in general, in crowded metro areas where the land is very expensive. I can hardly think of a new course in the past 15 years in my area that didn't have a housing component. Pleasant Valley and Laurel Hill don't but they're both on county owned land.

Tim

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