A routing that is for the birds?

[Rich Goodale]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7407089.stm

The latest development in the Trump/Memie Estate drama--an alternaitve routing for the planned courses developed by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds.......

[Rich Goodale]

http://www.golfenvironmenteurope.org/news/march08/coast.html

I checked out Mike Wood, and found the above.  Very solid and interesting thoughts regarding dune systems, IMHO.  Some of us (not me) probably know Mike from his days running the Edinburgh MSc. GCA programme.  Who do you believe regarding Wood/RSPB vs. Hawtree/Trump, or is it "both," and regardless, why?

[Sean_A]

Rich

I am not in a position to believe one side or the other.  Rather, I form my opinion based on a few  points of view.  First, if a need can't be shown, I don't think the status of the land as that of significant scientific interest should be compromised.  It is a pity that the enviros have not done a good job with publicizing why the land is so valuable.  Fully explaining the issues would go a long way to either the conservation of the site or possibly its development.  At the moment, we are in a limbo where it seems to me that a guy has waved a pile of cash and promises in front of politicians who have little vested interest in the area other than to look good in poll.  Second, the elected members of the Council for the area have made a decision which backs earlier government decisions to make this area a site of significant scientific interest (yet another case of the government wasting our money by revisiting previous decisions?).  To overturn these decisions there must be, imo, compelling evidence that the site will not be compromised by the development.  So far as I can tell, no such evidence is available.

However, as Scots politicians are no different from others (ie can be bought cheaply), I do believe the development will go ahead.  Sure, some sort of compromise will be brokered which will "ensure" the sanctity of the site, but we all know the truth of the matter; its an either or situation.  I am not buying any line about compromise.  I also believe that this case will make it more difficult for others to build courses on sites which make more sense for golf.  Folks will become entrenched as anti-golf and that is a great pity because golf courses don't have to be damaging to the environment.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

The Trump land is within or adjacent to (can't remember) the Scottish Parliamentiary constituency of the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, so he does in fact have a vested political interest in that area.  AS the first minister with big ambitions, he has another politically vested interest in making Scotland a more vibrant economy.  If you think he can be bought cheaply that is your call, but IMO, an ignorant one.

Rich

BTW--did you read hte latest analysis that Scotalnd would in fact have a significantly positive budget surplus if independent, even after cutting taxes and puttinn money into a Norway/Alaska/Kuwait sort of Permanent Fund, due to the rise of the price of oil?  You little englanders may soon get your wish of an independent Scotgland, but at your financial, political, cultural and social loss, not ours.

RFG

[Sean_A]

Sean

The Trump land is within or adjacent to (can't remember) the Scottish Parliamentiary constituency of the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, so he does in fact have a vested political interest in that area.  AS the first minister with big ambitions, he has another politically vested interest in making Scotland a more vibrant economy.  If you think he can be bought cheaply that is your call, but IMO, an ignorant one.

Rich

BTW--did you read hte latest analysis that Scotalnd would in fact have a significantly positive budget surplus if independent, even after cutting taxes and puttinn money into a Norway/Alaska/Kuwait sort of Permanent Fund, due to the rise of the price of oil?  You little englanders may soon get your wish of an independent Scotgland, but at your financial, political, cultural and social loss, not ours.

RFG

Rich

I can guarantee you that Salmond's biggest ambition is to stay in power.  He will attempt to do so by whatever means he can.  The launching pad is to stay popular in the polls.  You are sadly deluded if you think Scottish politics are any different than anywhere else.  If the government thinks a housing development with a golf course attached is going to have an impact on the economy then thats fair enough.  I don't think its here nor there and it is far from a given that the economy will be more vibrant for this develpment - hence my claim that if this goes ahead the Scots have been bought cheaply.

Believe me, I would be more than happy to cut Scotland (and more importantly Northern Ireland) loose and say get on with it (and on yer way, take the cretin Brown with you).  However, they may want to start thinking about how to raise taxes first.  So far as I can tell, the Scots are much like anybody.  When their politicians start talking about taxes, their popularity will drop.  As it is now, London is the convenient scapegoat.  Unfortunately, independence will mainly be a decision of the Scots.  I don't know about any losses where an independent Scotland is concerned and it is beside the point.  If Scotland wants independence it should have it.  IMO, even if Scotland doesn't want independence, it should have it! 

This whole deal about devolution is a scam.  Its basically asking me to pay extra taxes so the Scots can have representation in two places.  Then I get a great thanks by the Scottish telling me that my daughter will have to pay full whack if she decides to attend a Scottish university.  Yet, other EU students attend for free.  Yes, this means a Frog can attend a Scottish university for nothing and a daughter of an English (I think Welsh and N Irish as well) UK tax payer has to pay.  I have no time for this sort of Scottish logic and I certainly don't want my tax money heading above the border to support it.  So long as the Scottish try to freeze out tax payers from decision making in Scotland, I have no interest in their opinions concerning matters English. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

I'll state the bleeding obvious...I bet the SSI land is the best parcel and the new alternative land gets off true links and into cow pasture.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

You should stop reading the English tabloids and BNP leaflets that probably come through your letterbox regualrly.

Salmond's ambitions are far greater than just staying in power--he wants more power, just as does any politiican.  In his case, that means leading Scotland as a nation, rather than just a feudal satrapy of ignorant masters in Westminster.  If you remember your American history, that's what we did in 1776 and aw' tha'.  Now that Scotland's rightful (using UN Rules) share of oil revenues from the North Sea has grown to the point that Scotland could in fact be more prosperous than it is under the clanking fist of that apostate Broon, what's to stop him?  Wendy Alexander?

As for Scottish Universities, I'm sure if you want to send your daughter to the University of Michigan you would pay much more than someone whose daughter was a resident Wolverine.  I know that is the case for California.  If you want to send her to a Scottish University on the cheap, move up here!  As you know, the quality of life and the golf is far superior to the benighted part of the isle you happen to live in. (Insert another smiley face here).

Paul, I don't think there is as much pastureland on that site as there is at Royal County Down.  That course came out OK, didn't it?

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean

You should stop reading the English tabloids and BNP leaflets that probably come through your letterbox regualrly.

Salmond's ambitions are far greater than just staying in power--he wants more power, just as does any politiican.  In his case, that means leading Scotland as a nation, rather than just a feudal satrapy of ignorant masters in Westminster.  If you remember your American history, that's what we did in 1776 and aw' tha'.  Now that Scotland's rightful (using UN Rules) share of oil revenues from the North Sea has grown to the point that Scotland could in fact be more prosperous than it is under the clanking fist of that apostate Broon, what's to stop him?  Wendy Alexander?

As for Scottish Universities, I'm sure if you want to send your daughter to the University of Michigan you would pay much more than someone whose daughter was a resident Wolverine.  I know that is the case for California.  If you want to send her to a Scottish University on the cheap, move up here!  As you know, the quality of life and the golf is far superior to the benighted part of the isle you happen to live in. (Insert another smiley face here).

Paul, I don't think there is as much pastureland on that site as there is at Royal County Down.  That course came out OK, didn't it?

Rich

Rich

I hope Salmond is successful with his ambitions.  Its time to part ways.  It still remains to be seen if independence is viable, how politicians will deal with not having Westminster as the bogey man (and actually raise taxes to support their decisions) and how all the ex-pats feel about it. 

As I don't pay taxes to Michigan, I would fully expect my daughter to pay more than a resident to attend the university - though I will strongly encourage her not to!.  As England and Scotland are under the same tax system and as I pay taxes which get funnelled to Scotland, I would fully expect to pay the same as a Scot.  In any case, I can't understand how a non UK EU student should pay less than a UK EU student.  That is logic related to the famed double Dutch which only a Scots could understand - unless of course it is merely a measure designed to piss off the English.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

The Scottish policy regarding university fees was in direct response to the English adding "top up" fees in 2005-6, which made the Scottish University system so cost-competitive that the government feared an influx of spotty faced, crooked teeth Sassenachs and/or Windsors breaching the border, drinking our beer, chasing our women and playing our golf courses.  They would have done the same to the Euros, but it was against one of the labyrinthine EU directives.  Rest assured, however, that we have not, as yet, seen an influx of Greeks or Belgians.

Rich

PS--don't blame Salmond--it was the Labour/Lib Dem coalition which established this policy--at the same time as they were licking the boots of the Westminster Blair/Brown quasi-English Junta.

PPS--for all of your furriners out there who are wondering--what are Sean and I arguing about?  Well, it costs a Scottish person a tuition of about $2000 per annum to attend University, with grants (scholarships) available for the needs.  English/Welsh/NI students pay about $3-5000/annum more (anybody with more up-to-date figures than I please let me know).  We're not talking ball-busting number here.

RFG

[Sean_A]

Sean

The Scottish policy regarding university fees was in direct response to the English adding "top up" fees in 2005-6, which made the Scottish University system so cost-competitive that the government feared an influx of spotty faced, crooked teeth Sassenachs and/or Windsors breaching the border, drinking our beer, chasing our women and playing our golf courses.  They would have done the same to the Euros, but it was against one of the labyrinthine EU directives.  Rest assured, however, that we have not, as yet, seen an influx of Greeks or Belgians.

Rich

PS--don't blame Salmond--it was the Labour/Lib Dem coalition which established this policy--at the same time as they were licking the boots of the Westminster Blair/Brown quasi-English Junta.

PPS--for all of your furriners out there who are wondering--what are Sean and I arguing about?  Well, it costs a Scottish person a tuition of about $2000 per annum to attend University, with grants (scholarships) available for the needs.  English/Welsh/NI students pay about $3-5000/annum more (anybody with more up-to-date figures than I please let me know).  We're not talking ball-busting number here.

RFG

Rich

Setting aside all the problems with UK universities, I do understand the origin of the divergence in fees (and believe it was one of a few reasons why Labour was chucked out this past election) and honestly have no problem with top up fees.  For purely selfish reasons I would love to see folks being paid £6-£12 per hour subsidizing my daughter's education, but from a practical standpoint I understand that its asking a bit much.  I don't think charging £3000 per annum is too much to ask of a person (in fact its a steal and hence the reason I shall be encouraging my daughter to attend a UK university) earning a degree who will then go out to earn significantly more money than a person who doesn't earn a degree.  I think it is still generally cheaper to for the English to attend Scottish unis, but not enough to influence the decision of where to attend.  I am not aware of any crazy influx of Sassenachs ever attending Scottish universities.  Additionally, I think Westminster wanted the Scots to be on the same scale as the rest of the UK and it was briefly until a minor rebellion occured.

Rich - it is my understanding the Scots (and non UK EU folks) don't pay tuition, but there is a one off graduation type fee which is more or less the equivalent of one year's tuition. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

St, Andrews and Edinburgh Unis are hoaching with Englanders.  Close to 50%.  Prince William and his squeeze Kate Middleton come to mind as recent graduates.

As I said and you confirm, college/university education is cheap as dirt over here, so whining about an additional $3-5k/year is just that, whining (or girning, as we say in the Scots language).

What is your point again?

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean

St, Andrews and Edinburgh Unis are hoaching with Englanders.  Close to 50%.  Prince William and his squeeze Kate Middleton come to mind as recent graduates.

As I said and you confirm, college/university education is cheap as dirt over here, so whining about an additional $3-5k/year is just that, whining (or girning, as we say in the Scots language).

What is your point again?

Rich

Rich Moneybags

$3-$5000 grand a year may be a non issue to you, but it ain't to me especially if it involves handing it over to some Scot cretin.  One reason tuition is cheap here compared to the US is because I pay higher taxes to help subsidize the unis - all the unis (much against my judgement as I think at least half of the joints should be shut down).  Additionally, the reason St Andrews and Edinburgh have a lot of Roast Beefers is because they are good schools.  I don't think there is much of a problem with the other Scottish unis - there aree plenty of so so schools south of the border.  Besides, if these unis didn't take "foreign" students they would have to find funds from some other source - likely me, but then a Scot wouldn't understand about the evils of tax and spend because they don't raise taxes. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

This thread had potential....   

[Rich Goodale]

Mea culpa, Ally.  Anybody want to get it back on topic?

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

I thought you might, Rich?

Interesting to see the routing at last, even if it means nothing without the topo and other info...

Is there any other information in the public domain about the actual design of the golf course?

[Rich Goodale]

Not that I know of, Ally.