[Philip Gawith]

My tongue is slightly in my cheek when I ask this question, but not wholly. Played into the wind, we all know it is a tough hole - maybe the hardest par on the course? - requiring two pretty big hits just to get to the green (but at least if the shot is on you know you can hold the putting surface).

But when i was there last weekend, the wind was behind us both days, and the flag was at the front centre of the green. I came into the green three times, twice with a 9 iron, once with a wedge (twice from left edge, once from right edge). All were pretty well struck - two of them flew to the putting surface and one was more by way of a run-up. All finished 20 plus yards from the flag. It was difficult to conclude in the conditions that getting close to the hole was much more than a lottery. It is one thing to have to run the ball up to get close - such as you can and must do on 11 and 16 with the same wind blowing - but when you have a "ditch" of the sortthe 18th has facing you, is it really a matter of skill, or just rank fortune?

In passing, with the same wind blowing, the pin on the short 10th was about four yards from the front of the green. I am not sure whether that counts as a considerable challenge or just silly?

In passing, maybe Rich or someone else can advise on which wind is considered the most difficult at Dornoch?

[Jon Wiggett]

Philip,

while luck does have does have a part in golf and a good golfer must learn to accept this I suspect you need to learn the lesson that I and many other golfers have had to learn. If you can't get it close on such a shot then yur game is not up to it. The answer is practice. It won't help you to pull it off all the time but it will help you pull it off some off the time.

[Sean_A]

Philip

I do recall the short the 10th being a bit silly downwind - in short, its overbunkered.  It would seem even the Scottish have the disease as well.  I am not sure I can agree about the 18th.  I have seen similar type holes such as the 8th at St Enodoc.  With a decent tailwind the hole reveals it design weakness.  I managed to run the gully for a downwind shot.  I will grant you that luck played its part, but one must be given credit for attempting the shot.  I don't think 18 is special, but its a good hole.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Philip

In answer to your topic title question, yes, the 18th is a good hole.  Not a great one, IMHO, due to the blindness of the second shot, but quirky enough and hard enough to never lose interest.  It is also definitively the hardest one on the course relative to "par."  This is confirmed by tournament play where the average score, even for relatively elite fields is rarely less than 5 (the hole is 456 yards).  Quite frankly, I doubt if  hit that green in regulation as much as 10% of the time even when I am playing at my very best.

As to your question for me, I think that the southerly winds (behind you going out) are far easier than the northerly ones, for a number of reasons, including:

1.  The front 9 is harder, and a wind behind makes holes like 4, 7 and 8 shorter and ones like 2, 3 and 6 less intimidating.  Into the wind, you are hitting longer clubs to smaller targets, and it is easy to get on a "bogey train" that never seems to be rady to stop.
2.  On the back 9 (as you say) if you play downwind you have to be much more precise (and often very creative) to hold greens like 10, 11, 13, 14, and 15 (much less get close to a front pin).

This is just my opinion, of course, and other players with other games and other experiences might differ.

Sean, you are right that the 10th (148 yards) gets very quirky with a stong northerly (downwind) shot, but I would not call it silly, nor would I call it "overbunkered."  If there were not any fronting bunkers, the downwind shot would be a simple pitch and run.  As it is, when it is firm and fast and down wind and the pin up front, the best strategy is to hit a hit a high spin shot that lands 5 yards short of the bunkers and hope that it bounces over them and then stops.  Even if you are end up in a bunker, if you have decent technique the 2nd shot is actually quite easy.

Cheers

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean, you are right that the 10th (148 yards) gets very quirky with a stong northerly (downwind) shot, but I would not call it silly, nor would I call it "overbunkered."  If there were not any fronting bunkers, the downwind shot would be a simple pitch and run.  As it is, when it is firm and fast and down wind and the pin up front, the best strategy is to hit a hit a high spin shot that lands 5 yards short of the bunkers and hope that it bounces over them and then stops.  Even if you are end up in a bunker, if you have decent technique the 2nd shot is actually quite easy.

Rich

What you say is fair enough.  Though I would disagree that a bump and run to the 10th could be classified as easy given the bunkering on the flanks and the slightly raised nature of the green.  It is well known that I don't favour heavily bunkered holes, especially those involving fronting bunkers which can play harshly downwind.  If there is a way to bounce off a dune and kick on then thats fine.  Personally, I would rather see the fronting bunkers dropped back from the front of the green and allow a kick in area of 5-10 yards.  As is, I couldn't call the hole a very good one, which is a shame given its site.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

I respect your opinions Sean, but the 10th is a hole that continues to grow on me.  There is, in fact a 3x10 yard or so landing spot past the front bunkers from which a ball can be stopped on the lower tier downwind, if hit with enough spin.  Given that the hole effectively plays about 100-110 in those circumstances, such a small target for getting the ball close is not unreasonable, IMO.  And of course, if your goal is just to get the ball on the putting surface, any properly hit ball that lands on the front tier(or the slope between the two tiers) will stay on the green.  As that is a target area of about 15 yards square, I do not consider that to be extreme.  I personally think that the 10th is the best of an extremely good set of par-3s at Dornoch.

Cheers

Rich

[Philip Gawith]

That is some claim you make Rich re the 10th being the strongest of the one-shotters! That would definitely put you into a small group - nothing wrong with that. I suppose most would feel the 13th is the weakest of a very strong set (in that regard - have they in recent years made the bunkers on the left more challenging?) though i never find it sets up easily to the eye.

Despite my point re 10, I did two putt for par from the back of the green and my partner got up and down from front bunker, so it is not impossible.....

Interesting to hear your thoughts re the different winds. The way I hit the ball probably means i find 3-5 a little less challenging than others, but since i often start 6,6 that hardly qualifies as a boast! I enjoy playing into the North wind because it provides such a ball striking challenge with your tee shot on holes like 2 and 6.

To my original point: possibly the heading misleads. As you can tell, I am only realy talking about when the hole plays downwind, and I suppose the nub of the question concerns whether the unpredictabilitiy of the ditch at the front makes it an unsatisfactory hazard.

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Philip

As far as you hit the ball, you should play the 5th like I saw your home boy Ernie try it from the back tee (358) a few years ago in a south wind--let it rip and aim for the path up to the green between the far left bunker and the gorse to its left.  He pulled it about a yard left of ideal and had to take an unplayable.

Yes, opening with 6, 6 is not uncommon at Dornoch (a multiple club champion calls 5, 4 (bogey, bogey for the Dornoch-impaired) the "dream start" to a competitive round).

Vis a vis the 3's, yes 2 and 6 do really test your ability to hit a mid/long-iron solidly when played into the wind.  Let's face it, they are both wold-class, regardless of the wind.  As is 10.  13's OK, but it's another one of those Dornoch holes that you know you should par and might birdie, but can bite you on the arse if you lose concentration or skill.  Try playing your second shot off a downhill lie in the rough from the deep hollow to the right....  And, no, the left bunkers haven't been changed.  Maybe some sand-splash build up over the years?

I played a Dornoch a month or so ago with a very good and well-travelled golfer and he agreed with me on 10.  His wife (also skilled and well-travelled) hated 18.  I don't love 18, but I take it for what it is--a ball-buster, particularly if you have a card in your hand, but also for match play where you can have a great 5 hitting your third shot with a driver off the deck into the wind onto the green and then lose a big tournament when your opponent sinks a 15 footer for a half.  Now how do I know that?....

R

[Philip Gawith]

I feel your pain!

[Greg Krueger]

18 is a brute! I played it with a pretty good wind into (20-25mph) absolutely killed my drive and still hit 3-wood into the green. I did hit a good 2nd shot onto the green about 20 ft. and 2 putted. I would say it is a good hole but not great compared to the many incredible holes at Dornoch.

[Rich Goodale]

You are right, Greg, and just so people don't think I am (or was) a compete wimp, my third to the green with a driver off the deck was after hitting out sideways from the far right hand bunker for my second shot.

Rich

Oh yeah, it was my Orlimar persimmon driver.....

[Phil Benedict]

It was difficult to conclude in the conditions that getting close to the hole was much more than a lottery.

This is an interesting philosophical question.  Is it poor architecture if under certain conditions it becomes impossible to put it close to the hole other than by dumb luck?  Put another way, should it be an entitlement that a properly played shot can get close to the hole by virtue of skill only, under all circumstances?

[Brian Phillips]

I think the 10th is one of the great par 3's on the British Isles.  Superb bunkering and very good run off areas all around the green.

It also looks very good from the tee.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

No problem then with how it plays in the conditions discussed by Sean A. and Rich?  It's not an uncommon occurrence; I saw the same wind when I last played there a couple of years ago and had the same reaction as Sean.  I don't think I would have pulled the bunkers back as he suggests because it would take much of the challenge away in other conditions, but if I were designing the hole I would try to give you some option other than bouncing a shot over the front bunkers!

However, to Phil's question above, I don't think it's an entitlement that every hole should give a "properly played shot" a reward, because there is a hell of a difference between your mom's properly played shot and your own and Tiger Woods'.  On a par-4 there is always the question of whether that properly played approach is coming from the ideal spot, too; but on a par-3 the player has no control over the angle of approach, and that is why I think the architect should give some option other than hit and hope.

[Sean_A]

It was difficult to conclude in the conditions that getting close to the hole was much more than a lottery.

This is an interesting philosophical question.  Is it poor architecture if under certain conditions it becomes impossible to put it close to the hole other than by dumb luck?  Put another way, should it be an entitlement that a properly played shot can get close to the hole by virtue of skill only, under all circumstances?

I don't  believe any shot is an entitlement.  I spose the same question could be asked concerning the 10th.  I don't care for the idea of aiming at bunkers to hope for the best, but I can accept that often times a hole can't be perfect or even good in all good conditions.  I like the 10th in most conditions, but I couldn't say its any where near one of the best par 3s at Dornoch let alone Scotland with the flaw of no place to land a tee shot with a good tailwind. 

The last hole I played similar to this was #11 at Harlech.  The front bunker makes this hole play nasty with a tailwind, but there are dunes to kick a ball in.  Its not ideal, but it is doable.  Still, I can't help thinking that if a front bunker is to be placed in this situation then a gap has to be left for the run up. 

Ciao

[Gary Daughters]

Apologies for underthinking, but if the sun is going down and bagpipes are wafting up in the not so far off distance.. yes, it's pretty good.

[Gary Gruber]

R.E the 10th, Rich may be able to confirm this but I am almost certain the front bunkers used to be two, with a run up between them, however I have played maybe 500 hundred rounds at R.D.G.C over the last 10 years and have only on a couple of occasions found it difficult to stop the ball on the green, there is always the gap through the right hand side of the front bunker which is wider than it looks.

[Jim Nugent]

...but on a par-3 the player has no control over the angle of approach, and that is why I think the architect should give some option other than hit and hope.

Tom, given that, how do you like #17 at TPC Sawgrass? 

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Gary

You realise, of course, that you hit the ball so solidly and with so much spin that your experience is not really relevant to most of us hackers on here....

You are right, of course, that there is a channel to the right between the bunkers, but it is a route that is taken consciously only by the extremely talented or extremely stupid.  I have had my shot flying unexpectedly towards that cahnnel many times, but only once or twice has god responded to my requests that it hit the square millimter necessary to kick the ball dead left onto the green.  I can't remember two bunkers there, but I also can't remember where I left my car keys 5 minutes ago....

Tom D

The green monster (and I'm not talking Fenway) is showing...

Rich

[Walter Bart]

 Re the 10th, I can attest to the difficulty in holding the green.  Case in point, a well- hit nine iron hitting the very front of the green and rolling right off the back. I don't spin the ball and might note that there was about a three- club wind.  Still,  it was surprising.

    I don't think the 10th compares to the uniqueness of the  2nd and 6th.

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