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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
A personal eclectic
« on: May 15, 2008, 02:48:09 PM »
Slightly in response to Matt Ward's Met Area 18, and inspired by Tom Williamsen's thread on the special nature of English courses i thought it might be fun to put together an eclectic of favourite holes. they are all in England (in which country I have probably played as many courses as there are in the Met Area, so comparison is reasonable). My criterion is that each hole must retain its own place on the card and you are allowed only one hole from any given course. Inevitably, it's an exercise in compromise and there have to be horrible and sad omissions, but if it prompts you to make up one of your own I can assure you that you will have some fun. There is no need of justification of choices at this juncture. Distances are in yards from the back tees. I shall play very few of these holes from there, but you are welcome to when you play as my guest.

1   Royal Liverpool   429   4
2   St Enodoc      448    4
3   Wallasey      373   4
4   Rye      411   4
5   Beau Desert   418   4
6   Royal St George’s   170    3
7   Sunningdale Old    406    4
8   Royal West Norfolk   494   5
9   Wilmslow      146   3

OUT         3295   35

10   Alwoodley   475   5
11   Royal Birkdale   434   4
12   Swinley Forest    455   4
13   The Addington   230   3
14   Ganton      281   4
15   Royal Lytham   464   4
16   Hunstanton   191   3
17   Silloth on Solway   495   5
18   Cavendish   441    4

IN         3466   36
OUT         3295   35
TOTAL         6761   71

Noel Freeman

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 03:44:31 PM »
Mark-

Very distressing you could not squeeze in Deal #6 or 16 into this list!

Peter Pallotta

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 10:34:57 PM »
Mark - I can't honestly remember if I'd seen the following list somewhere and looked into it and saved it or if I put it together myself because I thought such a course very nice - either way, it's just based on book reading and picture looking. It's a Par 70, made up entirely of short Par 4s except for two Par 3s (holes 4 and 14). The holes retain their own places, but I've failed to limit it to one hole per course. Here it is:

1 - Garden City
2 - Pine Valley
3 - Adelaide
4 - NGLA
5 - Portrush
6 - Pacific Dunes
7 - Crystal Downs
8 - Pine Valley
9 - Cypress Point

10- Riviera
11- Shoreacres
12- St. Andrews
13- North Berwick
14- Rolling Green
15- Dornoch
16- Pacific Dunes
17- NGLA
18- Inverness Club

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 11:55:23 PM »
Mark

A quick take from what I've seen....agree about your "compromise" statement

1. Royal Liverpool
2. Wentworth (West)
3. Alwoodley
4. Rye
5. Sunningdale (New)
6. Sunningdale (Old)
7. Ganton
8. RWN
9. Woodhall Spa

10. St George's Hill
11. Hillside
12. Royal Birkdale
13. Burnham
14. Royal St George's
15. Swinley Forest
16. Walton Heath (Old)
17. Royal Lytham
18. Sauton (East)

Rich Goodale

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 02:11:39 AM »
Mark and Kevin

I assume you are talking about the old #1 at Hoylake and not the current (2006 Open) one.   If so, is it really 429 yards? 

Thanks

Rich

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 06:28:47 AM »
Rihc, We're talking about the normal 1st at R Liverpool (Open Championship 3rd). It played at 429 yards for the open. The club website gives the length as 427 yards from the back tees. 

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 06:33:12 AM »
Mark,

Haven't the club adopted the Open routing as standard?

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

henrye

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 10:22:04 AM »
Is Rye's #4 really a great hole?  Perhaps this should be anothet thread, but I see 2 of you have chosen it as favourites.  There is no way anyone would design a hole that tight on that kind of topography today and get away with it.  Perhaps people enjoy it because it's so quirky.  It's pretty unique, but is it really that good?

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 10:30:13 AM »
Mark,

No, I checked with the club recently, as I was writing about it, and they are playing the course as they always have, but that if the Open returms that will revert to the Open circuit. As I understand it, it was as much as anything about the location stands, which they could do down the present 16th (Open 18th) and spectator movement from the principal entry for those being bused in from the off-site car parks, who came in right where the old 17th green (of blessed memory) had been.  They played the Open course routing for some months after the Open as an experiment - it was still played as that when the GCA outing took place there a couple of years ago.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 10:46:28 AM »
Henry,

I think it is a good hole. Donald Steel described it as, 'One of the finest and fiercest 4s on any links.' Patric Dickinson said that it is 'surely one of the greatest two-shot holes in golf.' What I like about it is that you have played out alongside the road on good enough holes, but nothing particularly amazing and suddenly you ascend the dunes and there it all is, laid out before you, and nothing save two dead straight shots will suffice. Your nerves are tested twice, but on the rare pccasion that you hit long enough and straight enough to get on in two it's almost as good as getting on the Road Hole green in two - or, rather, I imagine it is as I've never made the Road Hole green in two shots. But there is a lot of fun to be had if you miss the fairway or green, with improvisation needed to pitch up blind from the low ground on either hand. You are not looking at a cricket score if you fall off on either side - it's not as if it is an island fairway surrounded by water - those improvised rescue shots are part of the fun of the hole.

Noel,

I was agonizing over Deal, but, as you know, I don't know it anything like as well as you do. The problem is that the only time s I am in Kent it is either on the Eurostar belting along at high speed, or we're in the car catching the ferry at Dover for a gastro-break in Frogland.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 05:20:22 PM »
Mark, I have a few suggestions, some of which we both played when I was there.  These are not necessarily the "best" but holes i'd like to play again.

9 at Bull Bay.  It was one of the most unusual holes I have ever played.
10 at Prestbury
I'll second 9 at Wilmslow, if I can have two ninth holes.
4 or 6 at Reddish Vale.  Both were interesting and fun.

15 at Delamere Forest from the "winter" par three tee.
10 at Cavendish.  Although I did have a 15 foot putt on the great 18th.
8 at Stockport.
Two of my favorite course from those we didn't play.
I think five and six at Westward Ho! are just brilliant.
6 at St. Enodoc.  You gotta make room for a Himalaya.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 05:31:50 PM »
My own list of personal favorites. Sadly, my golf travels haven't been very extensive or included many private clubs (I haven't actually even played Pebble or Spyglass -- spectator only), so they are all American courses-- I did follow the rest of your rules.

Note: I am able to include Riviera, Morgan Creek, Monarch Dunes Pasatiempo, and MPCC-Shore in this list thanks to my experiences with other occupants of the treehouse. Thanks to you all!

Hole #         Par   Designer
1 Dark Horse      4   Foster
2 The Course @Wente   4   Norman
3 Tot Hill Farm      3   Strantz
4 Spyglass Hill      4   Jones
5 Lakota Canyon      5   Engh
6 Riviera         3   Thomas
7 Stevinson Ranch      3   Harbottle
8 Pebble Beach      4   Neville & Grant
9 Cinnabar Hills-Canyon   5    Harbottle
         35

10 Monarch Dunes      4   Pascuzzo & Pate
11 MPCC- Shore      3   Strantz
12 Morgan Creek      5   Phillips
13 Rustic Canyon      5   Hanse
14 Black Mesa      4   Spann
15 Tobacco Road      4   Strantz
16 Pasatiempo      4   MacKenzie
17 Apple Mountain      3   Pulley/Bell
18 Olympic Club – Lake   4    Watson/Jones
         71
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 06:50:09 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 05:42:40 PM »
That's a really cool list, Kyle.  Love the inclusion of Wente #2 - that is a damn great golf hole.  Also Cinnabar Canyon #9 - that could also go under the ski run thread, if we had such things as snow in San Jose.   ;D  Lots of other fun ones as well.  Love it.

I went through this excercise myself several years ago and my list was kinda fun too - can't find it now though!  Too many computer moves. 


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 06:29:16 PM »
I tried to stick with courses I either really liked, respected and knew fairly well in England.  The surprising things for me are how many par 5s I listed (I reckon I remmebr the really good ones because they are so rare), how long the course is and a par of 75.  I spose all the par 5s in effect reduce the diffculty of the yardage, but there are a few stout two shotters.

1. Birkdale  par 4  430

2. Perranporth  par 5  525 (leaving off St Enodoc was tuff)

3. Woking  par 4  413

4. St Enodoc  par 4  279 (leaving off St Georges may be a mistake)

5. Beau Desert  par 4  392

6. Sunningdale New  par 5  510

7. Formby  par 4  377

8. Huntrercombe  par 4  421

9. Westward Ho!  par 5  497

10. Swinley Forest  par 3  210

11. Wallasey  par 4  400

12. Worplesdon  par 5  454 (laving off Hoylake was tuff)

13. Stoneham  par 4  250

14. Worcestershire  par 4  446 (this was the hardest hole to fill - West Cornwall is a good candidate as well)

15. Burnham & Berrow  par 4  416

16. Addington  par 5  500

17. Littlestone  par 3  173 

18 Kington  par 4  275

par 75  ~6950 

Ciao

« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 08:21:31 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

JohnV

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 07:09:00 PM »
Someone want to put together an eclectic for the courses in the Del Monte Forest?

Only the following courses can be used : Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Spyglass Hill, MPCC - Shore, MPCC - Dune, Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills.

Keep the hole numbers the same.  Must include at least one hole from each course.  I haven't played Spanish Bay and the Shore course is a little too vague in my mind to do it justice.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 06:42:14 AM »
These sort of exercises are merely fun, but what an eclectic you could make from Fife, the Firth of Forth, the London heathlands, the classic courses in the Paris area, Belgium, Holland, and, of course, the Melbourne sand belt.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 07:09:29 AM »
Mark

What can you tell us about Wilmslow 9th and who it beat out for your eclectic?

Mark

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 07:45:10 AM »
Mark, What I can tell you about the Wilmslow 9th is that it's a seemingly innocuous drop shot cross a stream to a target green set on the start of the upslope on the far side, so it slopes down significantly from back to front. It is also slightly angled across the line, the axis being front left to back right and there are four greenside bunkers, two either side.  It is generally two or three feet higher than the surrounding ground. On the tee you are largely unaware of the wind which is funnelled down the river valley at right angles to the direction of the shot. Escape from the bunkers is routine enough, but chipping from off the green is difficult, and from through the back of the green scary - you have to get the ball up onto the putting surface which runs away from you downhill towards the stream. Most people overclub leaving a testing downhill putt, which we invariably leave short, scared of trundling on into the stream. Although the putting surface is a sloping plane, it is difficult to ea the exact downhill line because it is also slightly tilted and we generally allow too much or too little break. What makes it all the more fun is that you know you are messing it up under the gaze of members who are enjoying their post-round drinks sitting in the big picture window of the mixed lounge with more than a little money likely to change hands as a result of the bets they made while you stood on the tee.

Of course there were lots of other 9th hole candidates but I'd decided I would do my bit for my home club, and I needed another par 3 at this stage in the round. I had contemplated the 9th at Beau Desert (a 270-yard par 4 across a decptive valley) but the 5th there is a real corker, driving across low ground to a fairway angled across the line right-to-left then climbing to a hilltop green which has a 3-level putting surface, highest in the middle - a sort of upside-down Biarritz, although not as extreme as Yale or N Berwick!

As Tommy pointed out there are so many other candidates in our area on B-list courses, although I must remind him that Bull Bay is in Wales - outside my brief. I did certainly consider the 6th at St Enodoc, but I'd got myself stymied over a par 3 somewhere at that stage of the round. It's a desperate process including this hle or that because you are then forced to eliminate other contenders.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2008, 01:23:25 PM »
I'm sure I'm leaving something out.  Most of these are based on good personal memories. 

1 -  Kingsley Club    par 5
2 -  Pasatiempo       par 4
3 -  NGLA                 par 4
4 -  Spyglass Hill      par 4
5 -  Crystal Downs   par 4
6 -  Creek Club        par 4
7 -  Pacific Dunes     par 4
8 -  Muirfield            par 4
9 -  Cypress Point   par 4

10 - Oakmont          par 4
11 - Alwoodley        par 3
12 - Hoylake            par 4
13 - Bandon Trails   par 4
14 - Friars Head      par 4
15 - North Berwick  par 3
16 - Valley Club      par 4
17 - Old Course      par 4
18 -  Pebble Beach par 5

Par 72, 7350 back tees.  I'll play the forward tees!

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2008, 05:40:27 PM »
John
My Del Monte Forest choices.  My favorites no attempt to balance par our distance
#1 Spy Glass - Best opener on the Peninsula.
#2 - Spanish Bay - Fun short 4 with a wild green.
#3 - Dunes - Much longer than the yardage.
# 4 - Spy Glass - The approach is great fun.
#5 - Poppy Hills - One of the toughest holes on tour.
#6 - CPC - A better Par 5 than 6 at Pebble and the green is really fun.
#7 - Pebble - One of the great short  holes in golf what a setting.
#8  - Pebble - Nuff said.
#9 - CPC One of my favorites in all the world.
#10 - Shore - Great Green setting and right by the shelter that rivals Nepenthe for views and food.
#11 - CPC - Often overlooked but that green is great particularly the back right palcement.
#12 - Spanish Bay - good drive sets up approach all carry to a fun green.
#13 - CPC - under rated short hole green requires a precise approach or 3 putts is  a real possibility.
# 14 - Dunes  One of the most spectacular settings in golf and a back right pin is all anyone could handle.
#15 - CPC - The prettiest hole on the planet.
#16 - CPC - Could it be underrated for the options it provides?
#17 - Shore - Fun tee shot and the approach can be run in  with use of some slopes, some crazy bounces here.
#18 - Pebble - Wonderful hole for all skill levels and just steps to the Tap Room.
Tiebreaker hole A round at Peter Hay with a couple of clubs and drinks great place to settle bets.
I could probably do another 18 and have it come out completely different.


JohnV

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2008, 11:00:44 PM »
Thanks Stan.  Somewhat surprising not to see 17 at CPC on the list.  I'm not surprised to see CPC get 6 to Pebble's 3.

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2008, 11:40:22 PM »
I just think with the over growth of trees in the fairway it detracts from the great second if there were a clearer shot to the green.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2008, 02:43:45 PM »
Peter, I have not played Rolling Green, so i will bow to your greater wisdom, but it is commendably eccentric to add Royal Dornoch to your list, but to have the 15th hole down rather than Foxy, the famous 14th!

Glenn Spencer

Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2008, 03:53:48 PM »
I need to kill some time before the Flyers and the Penguins.

1. NCR South, Muirfield, Old Waverly or Wolf Run Par 4

2. Victoria National or North Berwick Par 4

3. Garden City Par 4

4. Bethpage Par 5

5. Old Waverly Par 4

6. The Golf Club Par 4

7. Huntington CC  Par 5

8. Camargo Par 3

9. Point O' Woods Par 3

10. Camargo  Par 4

11. Camargo Par 3

12. Holston Hills Par 4

13. Gleneagles (Kings)  Par 4

14. Victoria National Par 4

15. Huntington CC or Crooked Stick Par 5

16. Pasatiempo or Harvester Par 4

17. The Ocean Course, Firestone North or Crooked Stick Par 3

18. Inverness Par 4



This is hard to do and I can't believe some of the courses that I have played that didn't register on my list. I could never do this again.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 06:00:00 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A personal eclectic
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2008, 07:05:13 PM »
Peter, I have not played Rolling Green, so i will bow to your greater wisdom, but it is commendably eccentric to add Royal Dornoch to your list, but to have the 15th hole down rather than Foxy, the famous 14th!

Philip

Peter claims the 14th at Rolling Green is a par 3, but in reality a 3 is like a birdie.  It is without a doubt one of the most difficult par 3s I have seen.  Personally, I would go for Foxy if the big scheme of holes were open because I greatly admire a crafty bunkerless hole, plus Foxy is the best hole on a great course. 

Ciao

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale