[Matt_Ward]

I was reading a past article from Ron Whitten on Bandon Dunes and I have to say that his comments were very much on the mark for me ...

"To this observer, Bandon Dunes is a very good golf course in a stunning setting, with an anticlimatic par-518th that even Keiser now agrees needs a bit of tweaking."

(Source / Golf World, October 26, 2001)

I have to say that the real qualities of BandonDunes come early in the round -- in sum, for me, the first six holes are well done with the 4th through 6th simply spellbinding.

The course is clearly gainign mega brownie points because of the coastal setting and the Oregon coastal area is indeed wild and unpredictable. No doubt the sheer isolation in getting to Bandon also added greatly to the mix when the course first opened.

However ...

When I see Bandon Dunes rated among the top tier public courses in the USA -- top tier define as being in the top 25 consistently -- then I have to say where's the overall beef. There's plenty of so-so holes along the ride and the ending stretch is a bit of a downer -- beyond just the 18th although I personally like the 16th.

If anything -- Bandon Dunes gained considerable advantage with what the sequel course -- Pac Dunes provided. In reality there's no contest between the original and the one that followed.

Be curious to see where people see Bandon Dunes -- for my $$ I'd rather play Black Mesa and candidly see it, along with a number of others, as a better design and overall consistently better golf course. Location has certainly worked wonders with the Kidd design - but minus the holes I highlighted I don't see the overall beef that so many believe is there.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, an interesting point about Pacific Dunes making Bandon Dunes much more popular (although my Oregonian brother somehow still prefers BD  ).

We'll wait to see what happens at Black Mesa.  The informal word there last week was that Tom Doak will be building a second course.  That should build traffic at Black Mesa #1 the same way.  Santa Fe's a lot less remote than Bandon, could be a real winning combination.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - if 18 were tweaked, would your opinion change?

I agree that 18 is a weak finishing hole and is very anti-climatic.

[John Kavanaugh]

I agree that Bandon Dunes is hole for hole the best course at the resort.  There is zero doubt in my mind that it has the best last three holes of the three courses.  I love 16 and 17 and see the par five 18th no better or worse than the 18th at Pacific Dunes.  Bandon also clearly has the best start...nothing like checking in for your lodging and seeing groups teeing off knowing that will soon be you.

[tlavin]

I just wish I had played Black Mesa! so I could offer a comparison between it and Bandon Dunes.  Lacking that necessary experience, I would only note that there isn't a single magazine whose raters share Matt's opinion that Black Mesa! is in the same league as Bandon Dunes.  Similarly, I haven't played any Baxter Spann! designs, so I couldn't compare his other work with that of Kidd or any of the other architects at the Bandon resort.  One of these days, I'll get down to Santa Fe and tee it up and see what all the fuss is about.  I'll probably entitle the thread, "Finally made it to Black Mesa!!!!!!!!"

[Pete Lavallee]

Be curious to see where people see Bandon Dunes -- for my $$ I'd rather play Black Mesa and candidly see it, along with a number of others, as a better design and overall consistently better golf course. Location has certainly worked wonders with the Kidd design - but minus the holes I highlighted I don't see the overall beef that so many believe is there.

The last time I checked Bandon tee sheet's were full, year round. My one round at Black Mesa was on a sunny 70* day last October at noon and there were 3 other golfers on the course besides me? I still think that the green contours at Black Mesa are over the top; you just can't get there from here is the mantra on their greens. I certainly hope Tom Doak builds another course there; I will then feel compelled to return, because I believe Tom will find a way for me to get there from anywhere!

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Some day there will be an issue on which we agree.  I sincerely believe that.  It's happened before and and it will happen again.

But today is not that day.

1.  If you'll recall, Bandon Dunes was trumpeted HUGELY in here, in the outside world, and in all magazine ratings as if not the best, than among the best public courses when it was built.  Didn't it debut at #2 or something on one list?  In any case, to say it's been HELPED by the emergence of Pacific Dunes seems just plain wrong to me.  How can it be helped when it's done nothing but go down in such rankings since then?  How can it be helped when so many see the "far superior" course right next door and then spend all sorts of time and effort praising Pacific and either ignoring or denigrating Bandon?  Man I just don't see this one. If there was no Pacific, all people would talk about would be this awesome course in remote Oregon that you HAVE to see.   As it is, all the talk is about Pacific and Bandon is just a "play it also if you're there, but don't take time away from Pacific."  That's HELPING Bandon?  How?  Just because more make the trip?  But didn't you also say it gets brownie points for the remote location?  This is making no sense to me.

2.  Of course it receives mega brownie points becauwse of the coastal setting and the rest - but then again so does Pacific.  And why shouldn't they?  Such things exist, do they not?  Or are we going to argue AGAIN about the worth of evaluating "golf courses" v. the worth of evaluating "design?"  If you are trying to evaluate the golf courses, then obviously these things count.  If you want to evaluate design, then Tom Doak himself said that maximizing views matters in that as well.  Careful....  

3.  No contest between Pacific and Bandon?  Interesting.  Ask 100 golfers and I'd guess 55 prefer Pacific, 45 Bandon.  That sounds like a contest to me.  The constant arguments at the bars there about which is the best course attests to this contest as well.  I do believe Pacific is superior on the overall, but "no contest?"  That's taking it way too far.

4.  If you are basing this on bang for the buck, then oh yes Black Mesa defeats each course at Bandon, as well as damn near all other courses in our nation, with really only Wild Horse or perhaps a few others giving a good fight.  But is this really what you are asking about?

5.  So you like the first 6 holes and 16 and the rest is just so-so?  Fair enough.  I find a lot more to like in the remaining holes, but we need not debate it that much.  In the end, I think the course has plenty of beef, enough to justify every ranking it has received, as well as all accolades.  I think 7 and 8 are darn fine holes, as is 10, 11, 15 for sure... hell I can find something to like about every hole there.  So you do not.  So where do you think it SHOULD fall?  Outside the Top 100 public?

TH

[Michael Moore]

Matt -

I'll bet Wendy's is glad they did not hire you to oversee that particular campaign.

Can you imagine that old lady uttering "Where's the overall beef ?"

[Phil Benedict]

In his US Open preview Whitten said that Torrey Pines was the equal of Bandon, noting the similarity of their cliff side settings.  While he was making the point to boost Torrey Pines as opposed to tear down BD, his clear view is that BD is overrated and TP is underrated.

[Jed Peters]

I think it's good, but not nearly as good as the other two courses at the resort.

as for good holes, I personally think that 4 is the most stunning at the resort from an excitement and view standpoint, and 14 may be the best hole at the resort, period.

However, I think 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17 and 18 are just "average" holes.

[tlavin]

In his US Open preview Whitten said that Torrey Pines was the equal of Bandon, noting the similarity of their cliff side settings.  While he was making the point to boost Torrey Pines as opposed to tear down BD, his clear view is that BD is overrated and TP is underrated.

I don't know that I've ever heard anything as absurd as that point of view.  Torrey Pines is a waste of good cliffside property, riddled with dull, straightaway holes and Bandon Dunes is a magnificent golf course with a spectacular routing.  I'd rank Bandon a 9 and Torrey a 5.

[Mike Benham]

Are you talking about the Resort or the course?

Seriously, do you think there is any confusion by the masses between ranking  Bandon the Resort vs. Bandon the Course vs. Pacific the Course ...

I have spoken to more then one visitor who confuses the names of the three courses, preferring to call them all Bandon ...

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

You clearly think Black Mesa is underrated, but why do you persist in comparing every public course to Black Mesa and concluding that the competition comes up short?  

As Sean Arble might say, I have a lot of time for Bandon Dunes, even if it might be my least favorite of the three courses at Bandon (I waver on BD vs. BT).  I find 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 16 to be very good holes.  Add in the pot bunkers (they fit the course well, IMO), the ocean and the fantastic turf and it's a great golf experience.  

Re: Bandon Dunes vs Torrey Pines, it's Bandon Dunes in a walk for me.  

[Phil Benedict]

In his US Open preview Whitten said that Torrey Pines was the equal of Bandon, noting the similarity of their cliff side settings.  While he was making the point to boost Torrey Pines as opposed to tear down BD, his clear view is that BD is overrated and TP is underrated.

I don't know that I've ever heard anything as absurd as that point of view.  Torrey Pines is a waste of good cliffside property, riddled with dull, straightaway holes and Bandon Dunes is a magnificent golf course with a spectacular routing.  I'd rank Bandon a 9 and Torrey a 5.

Terry,

I didn't make this up although in my advancing years I am capable of misinterpreting what someone says.  The article I am referring to was in Golf Digest.  Maybe someone else on board here  saw it.

[Mike Hendren]

Gotta agree with Matt.  Bandon Dunes is surprisingly pedestrian at times.

[Will MacEwen]

Bandon has maybe been a little overhyped and now it is being torn down, as is the natural course of things.

1 and 18 are the weak holes.  I think 18 needs to be a longer par 5 or a long par 4.  17 has lost some of its teeth, as previously discussed, as the bailout left is now an option. Maybe the rough grows in in the summer.

It is not as challenging as Pacific, and Trails is growing on me.  Bandon, to me, is by far the easiest, and I don't think I could play six rounds in three days getting the crap kicked out of me. 

[Michael Dugger]

whoever said #10 and #17 are average holes is smoking something.

[Will MacEwen]

whoever said #10 and #17 are average holes is smoking something.

#10 was an average hole until I learned how to play it, at which point it became brilliant.  It wasn't all there in front of me...

[cary lichtenstein]

If I were to divide 10 rounds at Bandon:

Pacific 5
Dunes 3
Trails 2

[Jed Peters]

whoever said #10 and #17 are average holes is smoking something.

I did.

And it is, when compared to other "good" courses that are at that same level.

I guess they're good holes for the most part, but don't really stand out when held up against other similarly ranked courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cary gives the standard often used here.  For me, it goes:

3 Pacific
3 Bandon
3 Trails

flip coin for 10th round.  I do like variety and don't find any course there to be so much better that I favor it over the others.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

17 at Bandon is the only hole at the resort that truly tests your driver.  I enjoy that you have the option of hitting left and hoping not to find a bunker knowing that if you catch a good lie the risk was worth the reward given the difficulty of the approach from the right.  I would also say that the uphill approach on the 1st is one of the top ten uphill shots in modern golf....btw...how many uphill shots of any memory are in the modern top 100?...20 or so at best.

[Jed Peters]

Cary gives the standard often used here.  For me, it goes:

3 Pacific
3 Bandon
3 Trails

flip coin for 10th round.  I do like variety and don't find any course there to be so much better that I favor it over the others.

TH

I'll play (just because we have done this every year at the resort.....)

5 Pac
4 Trails
1 Dunes

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed - have you really gone up there and played 10 rounds, each year?

LUCKY!

I've never gotten to stay that long.... damn well never will with today's prices.  Oh well....

I'm proud of you for at least giving BD one round, btw.  Some of the more strident here go 10-0-0 for PD.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

While not agreeing with Matt, I'd at least like to take a stab at what i think he meant to say.

And that is to suggest Bandon still gets rounds today that it wouldn't have otherwise continued to get if Pacific and Trails hadn't been put in.  Perhaps its plummet down the ratings would have happened otherwise, regardless of other courses that are perceived as better being put in around it.

I too wonder if Bandon Resort were just a one-course pony, do you think it would get all the play and repeat play that it gets today?  Would you travel way out of your way, pilgrammage style again and again just to play Bandon Dunes?

I can't answer yea or nay, I've seen it, but haven't played it, but think its a question worth asking....

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