[Chuck Brown]

Right, I should not have been so superficial in categorizing when ANGC and Seminole were closed.

Personally, I think that Seminole provides an ideal winter setting; far enough south that few days will ever be too cold to play.  So play from October to May is largely uninterrupted.  to say nothing of the magnificence of the course itself.

ANGC, while incomprehensibly beautiful for three months or so in the spring, closes down in the summer, repoens in the fall, then closes again around the holidays, correct?  With a few unplayable weeks scattered in due to occasional bad weather, and the inevitable Masters-driven course changes...

Anyway, I'm turning down an invitation from either one, I can assure you.  But nobody's called or written just yet.

[Kirk Stewart]

Joeseph,

Thanks for the pics. I played Seminole yesterday and on #12 got my tee ball too high into the wind and I had 6 iron left in. The wind was howling and I can't recall hitting so many mid and long irons into relatively short par 4s.

The 4th hole might be the hardest Par 4 on the planet when the winds are up at Seminole.  Driver, 3 wood from the back tees left me 20 yards short.

Then you turn back and try to stop a mid iron on the 5th. Not very easy..

The toughest 6800 yard course in America ??

[Dean Stokes]

Joeseph,

Thanks for the pics. I played Seminole yesterday and on #12 got my tee ball too high into the wind and I had 6 iron left in. The wind was howling and I can't recall hitting so many mid and long irons into relatively short par 4s.

The 4th hole might be the hardest Par 4 on the planet when the winds are up at Seminole.  Driver, 3 wood from the back tees left me 20 yards short.

Then you turn back and try to stop a mid iron on the 5th. Not very easy..

The toughest 6800 yard course in America ??

ditto. I would like to hear of any 6800 yard course that is harder to score at than Seminole.

[james soper]

It's a wonderful, sporty golf course with wide fairways, fairly benign rough, great green complexes and that brownish/yellowish/greenish tinge to the course.  Tight lies are the norm and the wind makes it humm.

just played seminole recently and mr. mucci's color description is spot on. the course played firm and fast with winds around 15 mph. the course, as always, was in impeccable condition. our caddie darrell told us he had heard they were ripping up the fairways once the club had closed for the season. anyone heard anything about the new fairways?

[mtp]

I know Wannamoisett challenges the best amateurs at the NorthEast, at least it did years back- par usually wins. Par 69 at 6667 yards.
Is Seminole decidedly tougher to score on ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, don't string me up, but is Seminole really as good as its reputation?  I have played it only once, and thought it was excellent but top 20, I'm not sure. 

By the way very cool to see your name on the board.  What is interesting is that I played the course before I started posting here and remember seeing your name.  Didn't know you were so famous did you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Soper,

Darrell caddied for me on my last round this winter.

I had been horribly sick in bed for four days with some type of extreme flu.
I was within a few minutes of going to the local hospital.

However, the opportunity to play Seminole proved to be good medicine.

When I hit my tee shot on # 1, I almost fell over, I was so weak and tired.
Despite playing the worst golf I had played in years, it was a great day and I had a great time.

After the round Darrell said, "that's the worst golf I've seen you play since I've been caddying for you", to which I replied, "Darrell, I've been in a lot worse places over the last four years.  Playing lousy golf should be the worst thing that happens to me, especially at Seminole."

Tommy,

For "amateurs" I think it's easily one of the top 20 when the usual "breeze" is up.

They really get it at Seminole.
While every other course in South Florida is emerald green, Seminole is that nice brownish/yellowish/greenish color.  They crave F &F and, they mow the green surrounds pretty tight, letting marginal shots find themselves down the fairway or in deep bunkers.

It splits my categories of "sporty" and "championship" for amateurs.

The course, the features, the conditions and the wind conspire to present a masterful test, one that's challenging yet fun.

It's the kind of course you could play every day and never tire of it.

My dad took me to Seminole in the early 60's.
One of the first things he did was show me that really neat locker room with all of the great names of golf on those boards.  Neither one of us ever dreamed that my name would be up there one day.  I only wish he could be here to see it.

Mtpenick,

You have to remember that the fairways at Seminole are extremely generous, and that practically speaking, there's no difficult rough, it's fairly benign.

So, driving the ball into the fairway may not be as difficult as doing so at Wannamoisett, and missing the fairway may not be as penal, but, the golf course gets exponentially more difficult as you get closer to the hole.

If Seminole narrowed their fairways and grew the rough like Wannamoisett, Seminole would be a lot harder.  Thankfully, that hasn't happened and I don't suspect it ever will.

[Joel_Stewart]

Seminole is a great course, very fun and has infinate shot values which you just don't see on many new courses.  There is not a hole out there that you could play at least 2 different ways.

The more I see those bunkers the less I like them. 

 I've only played there once but 2 days later I met Pete Dye who is a long time member and says he is the only living person that knew Donald Ross.   So I told him how much I liked playing Seminole and he rips into me and what Brian Silva did to the bunkers.  Since I'm always looking for a fight, I asked him as a member and architect why he didn't protest the changes and he just turned his back and walked away?

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the things I love about Seminole is how the greens and surrounds feed mishit or marginal shots far from the hole/green.

I think it's a very unique characteristic.

If you examine these three photos you can see how a ball just rolling off the green can end up another 10-15-20 yards from the green.

The areas surrounding the greens feed the balls into the bunkers, which feed the balls further away from the greens.







Thus, the greens play far smaller than their square footage, and unwary, unobservant and greedy golfers often just miss their target only to find their ball far, far away from the hole, leaving them a dicey recovery.

And, the wind is the silent culprit that causes many of those fatal shots.

Joel,

I love those bunkers, they function spectacularly .

What don't you like about them ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick,

I bet your best and worse scores at Seminole, in spite of your physical impediments were not too dissimilar, whereas I have no possible excuse for the variations in postings for the courses out here.

You are a champ and I hope the group here know it.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

Thanks for the kind words.

Golf can be a great medicine, a great motivator.

What's better than wanting to go play a great course with good friends and ardent competitors on a glorious day ?

Seminole is special in so many ways.
It has innumerable personalities, some as varied as the wind.

And, the  hole locations can make the same hole so incredibly different from day to day.

[John Mayhugh]

It's the kind of course you could play every day and never tire of it.

You have to remember that the fairways at Seminole are extremely generous, and that practically speaking, there's no difficult rough, it's fairly benign.

the golf course gets exponentially more difficult as you get closer to the hole.

Patrick,
Hope you don't mind but I edited your post to highlight a few comments you made.   I think the highest praise is to say you could play the course every day and never tire of it.   Your words do a great job explaining how that's possible:
generous fairways
no difficult rough
course gets more difficult as you get closer to the hole

I haven't ever seen Seminole, but you could also be describing Mountain Lake.  Unfortunately, those types of courses are too rare everywhere, especially Florida.  I have a few friends who seem to think a golf course has to beat you up or else it's not a suitable challenge.  All I have to do is coax them out to Holston Hills (also a Ross) and they end up having a great time while trying to figure out where they lost all those shots. 

Anyway, nice posts on a place that is understandably special to you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Mayhugh,

Interesting that you mentioned Mountain Lake.

Earlier this winter I played Seminole then drove to Mountain Lake to join Mike Sweeney and his gang.

What a pleasant surprise.  (not Sweeney)

I loved the place and the golf course.

It was "sporty".  Fun, yet challenging.

Again, the kind of course you could play every day, despite what Wayno thinks of CBM-SR-CB courses.

My ultimate test for a golf course is as follows:

Do I want to return to the 1st tee after I've just walked off # 18 green ?

Seminole, Maidstone, Mountain Lake, NGLA, Hidden Creek, The Creek, Piping Rock, Yale, Hollywood, Pine Tree, GCGC, Cypress Point and many, many other courses pass that test for me.

Others, while a great experience and perhaps a great golf course, don't evoke that desire, that desire to play the course, day in and day out, with 36 a day if possible.

Interestingly enough, the first time I played Merion I loved it, except for the incredibly penal rough.  I also thought that the fairways were too narrow given the difficulty of the rough.

While I wanted to play it again, the overly penal rough took a lot of the FUN out of the golf course.

I thought to myself, this is a great golf course, but, playing it every day has to take its toll.

Now I love WFW, Oakmont and other championship tests, but, I don't love them enough to want to play 36 a day, every day.

Shinnecock might be the exception for a championship course.

Whereas, I could easily do that at the other courses I mentioned.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

If you don't get yourself over to Indian Creek next winter, I will have lost what little respect that remains for you.  I then require you to provide a detailed report including comparisons and contrasts.  Don't worry, I know your beloved Seminole has a huge advantage from the get go.  But I'll take whatever I can get at this point.

Are you ever coming down for a visit?  I really would like you to show me the Redan features of a local hole.  If you don't mind, I'll record it.  If our one course is too tough for you to go back to the first tee after playing 18, we can play 18 on the other course.  You'll love it.

By the way, I'm playing in a match at Hidden Creek on Wednesday.  I am really looking forward to my return visit.

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:

To me the bunkers look very common, not very historic, not something Ross would put in.  Pete Dye told me "those bunkers and greens sure don't look like Donald Ross features".  The new tongues are an example of mis shaping, not like the photo below?

Not sure how old this photo is?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

If you don't get yourself over to Indian Creek next winter, I will have lost what little respect that remains for you.  I then require you to provide a detailed report including comparisons and contrasts.  Don't worry, I know your beloved Seminole has a huge advantage from the get go.  But I'll take whatever I can get at this point.

Wayno,

I was supposed to play Indian Creek this past April, but a friend of mine who was supposed to set it up through a business partner who's a member, failed miserably at that task.

It is high up on my "to play" list, as is the CC of Fairfield and Fisher's Island.[/color]

Are you ever coming down for a visit?  I really would like you to show me the Redan features of a local hole.  If you don't mind, I'll record it.  If our one course is too tough for you to go back to the first tee after playing 18, we can play 18 on the other course.  You'll love it.

If this lousy weather ever improves, I'll come down for two days.[/color]

By the way, I'm playing in a match at Hidden Creek on Wednesday.  I am really looking forward to my return visit.

I don't get to Hidden Creek often enough.
I really like the golf course, facilities, staff and how they run things.
It's a wonderful golf course that keeps getting better.

Please say "hello" to everyone for me.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

To me the bunkers look very common, not very historic, not something Ross would put in.  

I don't see how you can say that given the topography.

Could you expand on their common, non-historic look in the context of the greenside bunkers on # 2 and # 11 ?

How are they NOT something Ross would put in ?

For well over a dozen years I've had Ross's schematics of each hole including the greens and surrounds.

I've also seen, but not studied in great detail, photos from the 30's, 40's and 50's, and don't see a great disparity between the bunkers in those eras versus today's bunkers.

Unfortunately, Seminole's recently published "history" doesn't provide an abundance of old photos, but, the ones that are there reflect the flavor of the current bunkers.[/color]

Pete Dye told me "those bunkers and greens sure don't look like Donald Ross features".  

Pete's a great guy, a marvelous talent and perhaps the father of modern architecture, but, he's been known to contradict himself and make remarks from the hip.

If you'd examine Ross's field schematics, general 1929 plan and old photos, you might draw a different conclusion..

Did Pete elaborate on how the bunkers and greens don't look like Ross features ?[/color]

The new tongues are an example of mis shaping, not like the photo below?

I'm not so sure that I agree with that.

Pictures from the 30's, 40's and 50's seem to show similar tongues.

You have to remember that maintainance crews mow, edge and work on those features on a daily basis.  And, with the extreme weather buffeting the course, very little stays the same over time.[/color]

Not sure how old this photo is?

I've seen it before.

I've also seen photos of that green taken in the 30's.

Does the shaping or mis-shaping of the tongues make a difference in the playability of the golf course ?

Is it nit picking ?

And, didn't Pete have a slight axe to grind at Seminole a number of years ago ?  Could the remnants of that be the cause of his criticism ?[/color]

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