[Sean_A]

After a leisurely lunch we had a chance to buzz round the West course.  There is some good stuff there and some of the greens are more severe than its seeester, but they are more shaggy.  Its a pleasurable round for sure, but as the member tees on the East are only 6100 yards, I am not sure why folks would pick the West over the East as an "easy" round.  Ah well, I spose its a live and learn sort of deal.

Approach to #1 with a volcano bunker on the wing.


Approach to #2, a shortish par 5.


The totally bizarre I don't know which hole as we skipped a few.  It could be 5 or maybe 6. 


The next hole is a goodun'.


Thios is one of those nasty greens I mentioned. 


The following hole is driveable, though I was doubtful.  Its another tuff green.


Here is another crazy hole.


While a bit more conventional, I thought this was the best hole on the course. 


The approach to the conventional hole.


I also liked this hole - again, # unknown, but this one has its tee run close to the 1st fairway.  Perhaps #12?


The approach to #? Sorry, but skipping holes in a cart through me for a loop.  The shanks didn't help much either!


The West is a pretty cool course, but man, with East down the road...

Ciao

[BVince]

Sean, any more pictures of the west?

UPDATE (edit):  Thanks for the additional pictures.

[Lou_Duran]

Sean or Wayne,

Is there a large disparity in member preference of the East over the West?  How about by age group?

I've heard that the shorter, easier South Course at LACC is prefered by many older members of that outstanding 36-hole club.  Ditto for Winged Foot East.  What a predicament to have!

[BVince]

Sean, the picture of the 12th hole (maybe) has a much different look than the rest of the course.  Did you have a similar feeling when you were out there?  Additionally the short downhill par 3 looks really interesting.  It seems a bit wild in the slope but very different from the norm.

[Sean_A]

Sean, the picture of the 12th hole (maybe) has a much different look than the rest of the course.  Did you have a similar feeling when you were out there?  Additionally the short downhill par 3 looks really interesting.  It seems a bit wild in the slope but very different from the norm.

Bryon

In retrospect it does look different, but it didn't feel that way at the time.  With a handful of crazy holes, it just seemed to fit in well.  I do wonder if many bunkers weren't added after the course opened.  You and Lou will have to ask Wayne as I don't know anything about the place.  I was just a tourista passing through with the flotsam and jetsom of life.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Sean or Wayne,

Is there a large disparity in member preference of the East over the West?  How about by age group?

Lou,

Apples and oranges. While Winged Foot East and West are pretty comparable, and there is not too much of a falloff, The West is for playing with the kids and Grandpa. I used to play a Thanksgiving morning scramble on The West but then everyone had kids......

It is a fun course especially after playing The East, but you don't need to travel from Texas or California for The West. Let me state again, I love The West as  I played it a bunch as a kid and I am actually surprised that Sean did not embrace some of The West quirk. It probably sits #2 on my 6000 yard course list behind Cape Arundel (ME).

[CJ Carder]

It's funny, but looking at those pics, the course reminds me a lot of the Old Course at The Homestead, what with the rolling hills and green complexes and all.

[wsmorrison]

CJ,

Not so funny, really.  Flynn redesigned Ross's work and added 9 holes.  While some of Flynn's work was lost when RTJ, Jr. came in to make some changes, as a driving range was added, most of the Old Course is still Flynn.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

Too bad you had such a quick tour of the West course, and were still basking in the afterglow of the East. 

Personally, I think it's one that requires some study, and I think the routing is just tremendous.   

You can't argue that they didn't get every bit of golf out of every nook and cranny of the property, and it has some of my very favorite holes at Merion, period.   As a group, the par threes would stand up most anywhere.

I read where Bill Kittleman believes that the West course has more "architecture" than the East, and in some ways I understand what he means.   The East course is much more lay of the land, in many respects, and the course just seems to hug the ground, where the West has more in the way of obviously man-made features.   

In any case, we're blessed around here to have two such tremendous courses under the same umbrella, and I'm happy you had the opportunity to see them both.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I can't think of a more "fun" course to play than West in this area.

[CJ Carder]

CJ,

Not so funny, really.  Flynn redesigned Ross's work and added 9 holes.  While some of Flynn's work was lost when RTJ, Jr. came in to make some changes, as a driving range was added, most of the Old Course is still Flynn.

Wayne,

I'm not sure I realized that, or even knew it in the first place.  Not knowing very much about Merion, was any of Ross's work kept when Flynn came in or is Merion West mostly attributable to Flynn only?  I very much enjoyed the Old Course at The Homestead and was pleasantly surprised that a short'ish course could still provide a fairly stern challenge (though I definitely should have scored better than I did that day).

Sean's picture of his "conventional" hole above reminded me of this picture at the Old Course, even though this green slopes the opposite way from the green in Sean's picture... I've never had so much difficulty from 116 yards and in.   


Sean also had a picture of a par 3 above that reminded me of this one...

[BVince]

Nice position at the top

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Too bad you had such a quick tour of the West course, and were still basking in the afterglow of the East. 

Personally, I think it's one that requires some study, and I think the routing is just tremendous.   

You can't argue that they didn't get every bit of golf out of every nook and cranny of the property, and it has some of my very favorite holes at Merion, period.   As a group, the par threes would stand up most anywhere.

I read where Bill Kittleman believes that the West course has more "architecture" than the East, and in some ways I understand what he means.   The East course is much more lay of the land, in many respects, and the course just seems to hug the ground, where the West has more in the way of obviously man-made features.   

In any case, we're blessed around here to have two such tremendous courses under the same umbrella, and I'm happy you had the opportunity to see them both.

Mike

I liked the West, but its next door to the East.  It really is a special course and at 6100 yards with forward tees to boot, its hard to argue that one should choose to play the West. 

Perhaps the man made stuff is what jarred me a bit.  Some of the man made features you speak of don't set very well imo.  For instance, the volcano bunker on #1 and the entire green complex of the last photo.  On the other hand, the short par 4 water hole is very cool.  It was especially gratifying that the bank behind/left of the green wasn't a garden.  In fact, I don't know what was there.  There is a strange mix of stuff going on which I think needs a few looks to take it in. 

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

CJ,

Sorry to mislead and mistakenly refer to Ross's course as a 9-holer.  Flynn reworked Ross's 18 hole revision of an earlier course altering the existing holes and creating entirely new ones in the process.  I also mistakenly said that it was RTJ, Jr. that did the redesign work when in fact it was Rees Jones.  I hadn't looked at my notes in a long time, but should have known better.  Anyway, here is the breakdown of which holes can be attributed to which designer: 

Hole 1:  Rees Jones
2:  Rees Jones
3:  Flynn (his 4th)
4:  Flynn (5th)
5:  Flynn (6th)
6:  Flynn (7th)
7:  Flynn (8th)
8:  Flynn (9th)
9:  Rees Jones
10:  Flynn/Rees Jones
11:  Flynn
12:  Ross/Flynn/Rees Jones
13:  Flynn/Rees Jones
14:  Flynn
15:  Ross/Flynn
16:  Ross/Flynn
17:  Flynn
18:  Rees Jones

[CJ Carder]

Nice position at the top

Fortunately, that's my dad and not me!   

CJ,

Sorry to mislead and mistakenly refer to Ross's course as a 9-holer.  Flynn reworked Ross's 18 hole revision of an earlier course altering the existing holes and creating entirely new ones in the process.  I also mistakenly said that it was RTJ, Jr. that did the redesign work when in fact it was Rees Jones.  I hadn't looked at my notes in a long time, but should have known better.  Anyway, here is the breakdown of which holes can be attributed to which designer: 

Wayne,

No worries.  I'm getting a nice education on Flynn reading these posts anyway.  Despite only having played his courses at The Homestead, I'm finding that I really like the design style.  The shapes and slopes of the greens are particularly fun to look at as well and I'm sure create even more enjoyment when playing them.  I'll have to try and search out other Flynns to play and then figure out a way to get on them.    

Incidentally, it doesn't look like much of Ross remained after Flynn got through with it.  Was that by design?  Did the club just not particularly care for the end product when DR got through with it?  I'd be interested to know the history behind that if possible, especially because I find that I like both architectural styles a lot.  Thanks!

[Steve Verde]

I would like to hear some people's opinions on the 5th hole at the West course.  I personally can't stand the hole as it currently is.  I have no problems whatsoever with the blind tee shot.  My problem with the hole is that if you hit driver down the middle it will kick right into the gully or thick rough, and there isn't much room left to play for the left-to-right slope.

I don't know how close the 15th tee is to the fairway but I would propose to knock down a couple of the trees left of the fairway and extend the fairway to the left.  I would also like to have the rough left of the green turned into fairway.  In the holes current condition it is very unforgiving and requires too much precision on both shots.  I can't imagine even very low-handicappers walking away with 4 on that hole over 50% of the time.

Ignoring the blind tee shot and elevation changes, I think this hole could be a mirror image of the 5th at the East course.  The 5th of East has hard right-to-left kick and you have to keep it away from the creek.  The 5th on the West has hard left-to-right kick and you have to keep it away from the gully.  Both holes almost require you to hit the fairway because the length and difficulty of the 2nd shot.  The 5th hole on the West Course has the potential to be a great hole like its counterpart on the East Course but it definitely needs to provide the player with more room and more options.

[Michael Goody]

I played the West a fair amount in high school (it was one of our home courses). It was always a lot of fun.

Steve, that 5th hole still gives me nightmares and it is the first hole I think of when people talk about Merion West. Always thought it was really hard to hold that fairway. It could be a terrific hole though.

I loved 6-7-8 as a trio. very quirky. also liked how the 10th tee was an extension of the 9th green, if memory serves.

[D_Malley]

steve,
i have played the west hundreds of times and the fifth hole is probably the hardest hole on the course, and i have even heard people say that it is the hardest hole on either course.

Tom Doak's new course at stonewall has a hole on it (not sure of the hole #) that was almost identicle to west #5.  i remember that the tee on the stonewall hole was tied into a bunker complex from another hole.   maybe some one can cite the hole #.

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

With driver in hand and the trees you suggest taken down, a pulled drive could easily strike someone on the 15th tee.  Even with the trees, it is possible to get near the tee as you have to favor the left side.  I don't get the ball all that high with my driver so I cannot take it over the big sycamore tree on the left and try to get down the slope on the far side of the ridge.  I always try to hit a 15* or 22* fairway wood (depending upon wind) just right of the tree and leave it on the relatively small level fairway.  From there it is 180-200 yards in.  The green is a big target and just short is better than most misses. 

I love the hole as is though wouldn't argue with a bit of widening of the fairway to the left...but not much.  It is long and hard, which stands out on that course since most of the holes require precision rather than precision and long approaches.  I think it adds a nice amount of spice (hot pepper) before the quirky corner that follows.

[Kirk Gill]

(Message deleted due to the stupidity of the person who posted it.)

[TEPaul]

Kirk:

On your post #19, two things:

1. I want to nominate it for post of the year. Would you mind? There are actually some damn fine prizes for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com "Posts of the Year Awards". First prize is a week in Philadelphia and second prize is two weeks in Philadelpia. Third prize is a month in Philadelphia where you get to hang out all day and all night for a month with the three main "Philadelphia Syndrome" conspirators and bully boys, Morrison, Cirba and Paul. We will even show you our inter-sanctum-sanctorum under the Merion clubhouse and the actual interworkings of how the "Philadelphia Syndrome" has managed for the last century to glorify our own golf architects and totally diss all others from outside Philadelphia. We might even make you a member of the "Syndrome" which will give you the chance to some day rise to be its the Chief Kimosabe which gives you the right to go abroad to the annual spring training camp of The Masons where if you're lucky you might get to see all the booty the Knights Templar ripped off those dumb-ass Arabists or Muslamists or Islamists or whatever they're called, back in the day, including the "Holy Grail" and the original copy of the Sermon on the Mount which was reputedly written by Hugh I. Wilson's fifty seven-times great grandfather! (by the way, "Philadelphia Syndrome" trainee, Joe Baush, recently discovered a newspaper article in the digitized files of the 2,000 year old Jerusaleum daily newspaper known as the "Woe is Me Inquirer and Public Ledger")

2. I would like to buy the wording on your post #19 and trademark it for my very own to be used regularly on my next 30,000 posts.

[Kirk Gill]

TePaul, my thanks regarding your nomination of my message for post of the year. I gratefully accept your nomination, and am holding out for third place.

Why? Well, I do want to see that inner sanctum. I'm curious mainly about the kind of robes you guys wear, and what kind of weird ritualistic sacrifices you are willing to offer the golfing gods.

As someone who doesn't live in Philadelphia I find myself suspecting that cheesesteaks are involved, but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

As to your use of that quote, I grant you full rights in perpetuity, at no charge.

[Peter Pallotta]

From the picture books, I think Fowler, Flynn and Maxwell are my favourites. As I look at these new batch of pictures, what I like about Flynn is his "balance".  His courses are quiet but not too quiet; pretty but not too pretty; subtle but not too subtle; and natural but not too natural -- and in turn those four components seem balanced amongst themselves too.

Probably not a good description of Flynn's work or even of what I'm trying to say, but...

Peter   

[Sean_A]

TePaul, my thanks regarding your nomination of my message for post of the year. I gratefully accept your nomination, and am holding out for third place.

Why? Well, I do want to see that inner sanctum. I'm curious mainly about the kind of robes you guys wear, and what kind of weird ritualistic sacrifices you are willing to offer the golfing gods.

As someone who doesn't live in Philadelphia I find myself suspecting that cheesesteaks are involved, but that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

As to your use of that quote, I grant you full rights in perpetuity, at no charge.

I reckon cheesesteaks, disagreeable types (who may be right or wrong) where Merion is concerned and probably 3rd place finishers for GCA Posts of the Year Contests are willingly sacrificed -  all while the robes remain in boxes so it isn't even a show. 

WG Morrison

Reading your archie credits I am not surprised that the course strikes me as a bit disjointed.  How long a period did Flynn work on the course?

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"Why? Well, I do want to see that inner sanctum. I'm curious mainly about the kind of robes you guys wear, and what kind of weird ritualistic sacrifices you are willing to offer the golfing gods."


Kirk:

No problem---we'll show you the inner Sanctum-Sanctorum under the clubhouse. But if you're interested in becoming a full-fledged member of the "Philadelphia Syndrome" I should warn you the initiation rituals can get pretty messy. You may want to bring at least a couple of pints of blood with you from Colorado with which you can be transfused. The inner Sanctum-Sanctorum is set up with an emergency medical staff just in case. The "Philadelphia Syndrome" has actually killed a few inductees by a mistake over the last century, but none yet on my watch.

There's another neat feature under there----eg the underground tunnel that leads to the underground industrial compactor near the Maintenance buildings.

You see, with some of those holes being that close to Ardmore Ave and Club House Road, a whole lot of cars have been hit with golf balls over the years and the club can't really deal with the massive insurance premiums to handle that kind of liability.

So a couple of decades ago the "Philadelphia Syndrome" bought the club an industrial compactor and placed it underground near the maintenance building with a tunnel to the Inner Sanctum-Sanctorum. Today that Merion Maintenance crew is about as time-efficient as a Nascar Pit Crew. They're so good they can get a golf ball/auto accident swept up and off the road and into that compactor and in a truck to some landfill inside 7 1/2 minutes.

It was just over a year ago that Wayne Morrison sliced one off #2 tee and his ball went right through the windshield of this really big SUV and it crashed into a tree.

Super-super Shaeffer's crew had that big SUV with a soccer mom and her five children still inside in that industrial compactor and mashed into a piece of metal about the size of a medium sized chaisse-lounge and on a truck to a landfill in no time at all. Shaeffer's crew is really good at a lot of things other than just growing grass, that's for sure!

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