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Bill_McBride

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Return to Black Mesa!
« on: May 12, 2008, 09:44:43 PM »
I'm just back from a week in Santa Fe during which I played a couple of rounds at Black Mesa for the first time since an initial visit there in September 2004.

My first impression:  Black Mesa has improved since 2004, mostly in conditioning and consistency.  The greens were slow because it's that time of year in the Santa Fe NM area.  They are coming out of winter and all the courses have punched and sanded their greens and nothing is running much over 5-6.   :-\   But overall the turf was very solid and firm.

My second and more important impression:  Anyone who wants to play a very, very good modern course should not miss Black Mesa.  Baxter Spann designed a great test of golf for players of all levels, in a difficult environment with really excellent holes, views, concepts, etc.  It does not get old and plays differently every time you play it depending mostly on pin positions.

Black Mesa is a course where the player, regardless of ability, must be patient and self-aware.  The punishment for overreaching is severe in almost every case, as the fairways are wide but the native rocky rough is devastating.  It is essential to understand how the holes were designed to be played, as the greens can be diabolical if the play of the hole is not carefully planned.  The player who keeps his game under control, and is putting well, can score well.  The player who sprays the ball, or doesn't understand where to hit the ball off the tee or into the greens, will have a long day.

My advice is to get thee to Black Mesa as soon as possible.

I also had an interesting round at Pa-ako Ridge, and a less interesting round at Cochiti (RTJ Jr), but nothing matches up to Black Mesa for fun in that area.

I had a nice visit with Pat Brockwell - he's doing a terrific job keeping Black Mesa in great condition.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 10:13:48 PM »
Bill,

I've heard from a few in here that Black Mesa is top 100 in the country.  That being said can you compare and contrast what you saw there to your recent visit to Pasatiempo?  How would these two courses stack up in your mind?

Thanks,

Kalen

Andy Troeger

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 10:18:21 PM »
Bill,
Glad you enjoyed your time here in New Mexico. The more times I play them the more I'm starting to agree that Black Mesa might be the best in the state. I played Paa-Ko Ridge on Sunday and while I love them both I'm wavering now as to which one is better. Cochiti is still one of the better other courses in the area, but nothing out here compares. Pinon Hills in Farmington would be the closest most likely.

I was not pleased to see the huge house being built to the right of #1 at Paa-Ko. They have quite a few lots out there, so I imagine its only a matter of time before it gets built up. I sure hope it doesn't turn into Troon North...

Thankfully there are no such worries at Black Mesa. I need to get up there again.


Kalen,
Since you asked  ;), I do really like Pasatiempo and think its a top 100 level course, but I like Black Mesa better. Both have a number of great holes with great greens. Black Mesa is stronger tee-to-green IMO. I give extra points too for the sense of scale at Black Mesa. You literally can stand on the 18th green and see 40 miles give or take in just about every direction without seeing more than a few man-made structures (other than the clubhouse of course) in any direction. Totally awesome...not only is it a great golf course but it sceams "New Mexico" in terms of representing the state and countryside.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 10:24:17 PM »

Kalen, I love 'em both.  It's like Ginger or Mary Ann.  Pasatiempo is old school, Black Mesa is new.  As Andy says, the views and surroundings at BM are unbelievable, you actually play #4 and #11 par 3s up into box canyons!

Black Mesa is an unforgettable experience.  So is Pasatiempo.  I can't compare them any other way.

jkinney

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 10:52:24 PM »
My wife and I play Black Mesa several times each summer and just love it.  Better than Paako Ridge in both our opinions. Also a great walk if one is in shape. Santa Fe is lucky to have it in its back yard.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 11:08:14 PM »
My wife and I play Black Mesa several times each summer and just love it.  Better than Paako Ridge in both our opinions. Also a great walk if one is in shape. Santa Fe is lucky to have it in its back yard.

The holes wouldn't be too tough to walk, it's those dastardly climbs to the next tee!  There are a bunch of those that must be exhausting.  But a bunch of the GCA ers walked it in 2004 so it can be done.  I rode then and this time because it takes me a long time to get acclimated to the elevation.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!  ;D

Tim Bert

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 11:22:45 PM »

Kalen, I love 'em both.  It's like Ginger or Mary Ann.  Pasatiempo is old school, Black Mesa is new.  As Andy says, the views and surroundings at BM are unbelievable, you actually play #4 and #11 par 3s up into box canyons!

Black Mesa is an unforgettable experience.  So is Pasatiempo.  I can't compare them any other way.

Well, I know Black Mesa can't have your favorite 9 holes of any course (that would be far too great a coincidence), so that must be worth something in the comparison!

I've been trying to find an excuse to get to New Mexico for some golf for a couple of years, but these darn GCA outings keep getting in the way.  Maybe New Mexico courses could host the recently formed, yet untitled and unplanned "Midwest" event in a future year. 

Andy Troeger

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 12:00:16 AM »
One of these days I will attempt to walk Black Mesa. I have the feeling I could do it, as long as its not mid-summer when its 90+ degrees around here. Paa-Ko on the other hand I don't think I'd even attempt.

Walking 9 at Black Mesa and riding the other nine is a nice option, the holes aren't that far apart generally its just a couple spots that must be traversed that make the hike interesting. #7 to 8 and #11 to 12 would get your attention. The elevation makes a big difference for those not used to it.

Tim,
Certainly it wouldn't be hard to hold the Midwest event here, but New Mexico has actually been the site of a GCA event in the past (around 2003-4?). They played BM and Paa-Ko and maybe Pinon Hills, which is why a fair amount of folks can discuss Black Mesa around here. Other than Las Campanas, all the good golf here is public so it would be pretty easy to set up.

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 02:03:05 AM »
I've played Black Mesa on several occasions and have had a blast each & every time... I've walked, and never thought it was too bad of a trek (try the back-9 @ Bayside in NE) ;)

I understand where Andy is coming from, but I have to say that the greens at Pasa are in an entirely different class when compared to Black Mesa... I seriously found them to be that good. Not that Black Mesa doesn't have great greens with tons of shape & movement, but you can't really compare them to those at Pasa ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 08:25:34 AM »
I've played Black Mesa on several occasions and have had a blast each & every time... I've walked, and never thought it was too bad of a trek (try the back-9 @ Bayside in NE) ;)

I understand where Andy is coming from, but I have to say that the greens at Pasa are in an entirely different class when compared to Black Mesa... I seriously found them to be that good. Not that Black Mesa doesn't have great greens with tons of shape & movement, but you can't really compare them to those at Pasa ;)

#7, #10 and #16 at Black Mesa equal anything at Pasa.  IMHO.  :o

George Pazin

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 10:11:21 AM »
I've played Black Mesa on several occasions and have had a blast each & every time... I've walked, and never thought it was too bad of a trek (try the back-9 @ Bayside in NE) ;)

I understand where Andy is coming from, but I have to say that the greens at Pasa are in an entirely different class when compared to Black Mesa... I seriously found them to be that good. Not that Black Mesa doesn't have great greens with tons of shape & movement, but you can't really compare them to those at Pasa ;)

#7, #10 and #16 at Black Mesa equal anything at Pasa.  IMHO.  :o

Are you saying this in terms of green shape and movement?

Hope you bought Pat Brockwell a beer on me. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 10:35:50 AM »
Could there be two more different golf courses in this country than Pasatiempo and Black Mesa?

I guess I get that Bill played them back to back more or less... but wow, what an odd comparison.

I've played both and I all I can say is that it's so apples and oranges, well... it's hard to believe the same game is played on each.

TH

Matt_Ward

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 11:02:21 AM »
Bill:

Thanks for your post ...

Those who REALLY open their eyes will truly see the majesty of Black Mesa. I believe it's one of the truly unique and fun public courses in all the USA and can easily make a case for top 100 status. It's already there in my book.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2008, 11:29:13 AM »
Bill:

Thanks for your post ...

Those who REALLY open their eyes will truly see the majesty of Black Mesa. I believe it's one of the truly unique and fun public courses in all the USA and can easily make a case for top 100 status. It's already there in my book.

No argument from me.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2008, 11:29:58 AM »
Could there be two more different golf courses in this country than Pasatiempo and Black Mesa?

I guess I get that Bill played them back to back more or less... but wow, what an odd comparison.

I've played both and I all I can say is that it's so apples and oranges, well... it's hard to believe the same game is played on each.

TH

What'd I say above?  Ginger and Mary Ann!  8)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2008, 11:30:47 AM »
Could there be two more different golf courses in this country than Pasatiempo and Black Mesa?

I guess I get that Bill played them back to back more or less... but wow, what an odd comparison.

I've played both and I all I can say is that it's so apples and oranges, well... it's hard to believe the same game is played on each.

TH

Tom,

If it really is sillyness to try to compare the two, then so be it, guilty as charged because I started it.  I guess really I'm just trying to get a feel for how soon I need to get there...because I really really like Pasa and if BM is the real deal and just as good, then I need to get out there as well.

And to take in the other 2-3 options that Andy has been telling me about for months now!!  :D

Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »
I've played Black Mesa on several occasions and have had a blast each & every time... I've walked, and never thought it was too bad of a trek (try the back-9 @ Bayside in NE) ;)

I understand where Andy is coming from, but I have to say that the greens at Pasa are in an entirely different class when compared to Black Mesa... I seriously found them to be that good. Not that Black Mesa doesn't have great greens with tons of shape & movement, but you can't really compare them to those at Pasa ;)

#7, #10 and #16 at Black Mesa equal anything at Pasa.  IMHO.  :o

Are you saying this in terms of green shape and movement?

Hope you bought Pat Brockwell a beer on me. :)

Yes, those greens at Black Mesa, and a few others as well (#17) equal Pasa's in green contours and wild shaping.  They never play as fast as Pasa, I don't think, so could be easier to deal with, but that's relative.  Two putting from the back of #16 Black Mesa is similar to #16 Pasa (both virtually impossible!).  :o

I had a couple of brief visits with Pat Brockwell but he was too busy to stop for beers.  He was glad to see a GCAer there.

Since Pat didn't swear me to secrecy, I guess it's no secret that Black Mesa and their tribe client are planning a second course to be designed by a major GCA.  If that happens, there should be enough excitement to attract more play to both courses.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 11:38:35 AM »
Kalen - I get it, it makes sense.  It just struck me when I read that how different these courses are... and they really are!  Black Mesa is high desert, canyons, rocks, few trees.  You just played Pasa.  Get the difference?

 ;D

I will say this though:  Black Mesa is a GREAT golf course.  I have no idea how it fits in any top anything (sorry, Matt), but I do know that you would not regret making a trip to play there.  It is a hell of a lot of fun.

Caveat though:  it is not everyone's cup of tea - George Pazin has little love for it - but that's because he just plain doesn't like desert golf.  I doubt you feel that way, but for anyone else who does, well... Black Mesa obviously would not be worth seeking out.

TH

Kalen Braley

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 11:44:23 AM »
Kalen - I get it, it makes sense.  It just struck me when I read that how different these courses are... and they really are!  Black Mesa is high desert, canyons, rocks, few trees.  You just played Pasa.  Get the difference?

 ;D

I will say this though:  Black Mesa is a GREAT golf course.  I have no idea how it fits in any top anything (sorry, Matt), but I do know that you would not regret making a trip to play there.  It is a hell of a lot of fun.

Caveat though:  it is not everyone's cup of tea - George Pazin has little love for it - but that's because he just plain doesn't like desert golf.  I doubt you feel that way, but for anyone else who does, well... Black Mesa obviously would not be worth seeking out.

TH

Tom,

Understood its desert golf, and I do get plenty of that here in the Salt Lake City area.  Outside of aestitics, which I know can't be discounted, I was more just interested in the comparison in terms of quality holes, undulating greens, heaving fairways, etc.   If the greens are as good as Bill suggests and comparable to Pasa then thats a huge plus as I found Pasa's greens nothing short of excellent.

Perhaps a better comparison would be Lakota Canyon to Black Mesa.  I've played LC and I know there are a few on here who have played both.

Kalen

P.S. Come on Huck, not getting off that easy.  Would you put Black Mesa in the top 100?  Would you put it above Pasatiempo?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 11:52:22 AM »
Kalen - I get it, it makes sense.  It just struck me when I read that how different these courses are... and they really are!  Black Mesa is high desert, canyons, rocks, few trees.  You just played Pasa.  Get the difference?

 ;D

I will say this though:  Black Mesa is a GREAT golf course.  I have no idea how it fits in any top anything (sorry, Matt), but I do know that you would not regret making a trip to play there.  It is a hell of a lot of fun.

Caveat though:  it is not everyone's cup of tea - George Pazin has little love for it - but that's because he just plain doesn't like desert golf.  I doubt you feel that way, but for anyone else who does, well... Black Mesa obviously would not be worth seeking out.

TH

Tom,

Understood its desert golf, and I do get plenty of that here in the Salt Lake City area.  Outside of aestitics, which I know can't be discounted, I was more just interested in the comparison in terms of quality holes, undulating greens, heaving fairways, etc.   If the greens are as good as Bill suggests and comparable to Pasa then thats a huge plus as I found Pasa's greens nothing short of excellent.

Perhaps a better comparison would be Lakota Canyon to Black Mesa.  I've played LC and I know there are a few on here who have played both.

Kalen

P.S. Come on Huck, not getting off that easy.  Would you put Black Mesa in the top 100?  Would you put it above Pasatiempo?

Kalen, definitely not above Pasatiempo!  But as good as any modern course I've played except probably Friars Head or Pacific Dunes  (haven't played Sand Hills or Ballyneal).

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2008, 12:10:49 PM »

Obviously desert golf is not everyones cup of tea, but I think Black Mesa is one of the best public courses that has opened in the last 10 years.  I'm glad to hear conditions are getting even better.

What's Baxter Spann doing as an encore?



Bill_McBride

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2008, 12:27:05 PM »

Obviously desert golf is not everyones cup of tea, but I think Black Mesa is one of the best public courses that has opened in the last 10 years.  I'm glad to hear conditions are getting even better.

What's Baxter Spann doing as an encore?



Wish I knew, he's a great guy and obviously a very good architect.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2008, 12:29:24 PM »
Kalen:

Pasatiempo is a classic gem, and one of the greatest courses in our nation.  Now one magazine would wuss out at this point and just say one can't compare it to a modern great like Black Mesa.  Not mentioning any names, but lots of people here serve on it's rating panel.

Of course I do not make such wussy distinctions.  I just merely commenting on the huge difference between these two courses in what they are, not their quality.

Thus to answer your question, I do think Black Mesa comes pretty darn close, but does not surpass Pasa.   But I likely have it closer than others.

TH

Kalen Braley

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 12:32:41 PM »
Kalen:

Pasatiempo is a classic gem, and one of the greatest courses in our nation.  Now one magazine would wuss out at this point and just say one can't compare it to a modern great like Black Mesa.  Not mentioning any names, but lots of people here serve on it's rating panel.

Of course I do not make such wussy distinctions.  I just merely commenting on the huge difference between these two courses in what they are, not their quality.

Thus to answer your question, I do think Black Mesa comes pretty darn close, but does not surpass Pasa.   But I likely have it closer than others.

TH

Thanks Tom,

Thats some very good information to digest, even if I did have to be the bad guy and call you to the carpet!!   ;)  ;D

Brad Swanson

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Re: Return to Black Mesa!
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2008, 01:08:12 PM »

Obviously desert golf is not everyones cup of tea, but I think Black Mesa is one of the best public courses that has opened in the last 10 years.  I'm glad to hear conditions are getting even better.

What's Baxter Spann doing as an encore?



Wish I knew, he's a great guy and obviously a very good architect.

One might note that he is a very fine stick as well.  Unfortunately for him he was saddled with a playing partner that guaranteed his defeat vs myself and T Huckaby at Black Mesa on the Land of Enchantment Tour. ;)

Cheers,
Brad

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