Has Bandon Dunes been "dumbed down" too much?

[Eric Johnson]

Wow.

First off, let's not confuse opinion with fact.  Bandon Dunes was cleared of gorse when it was constructed.

There are numerous reasons why gorse is removed.

Irrigation clearance. 
Numerous valves and sprinklers had been overgrown by gorse and broom.

Air movement.
In some cases, gorse had grown enough to hamper air movement.  (ex., 8 green and 14 green).

Restore shot options.
Again on the eighth hole, the gorse had grown high enough to prevent anyone on the front tee from playing down the left side. 

Restore lost views.
The views from 16 tee and 17 tee were blocked by gorse.  The wall has been removed and views of the beach and Bullard's Beach State Park are restored.

Finally:
Gorse is designated “B” Designated Weed.  A “B” is a weed of economic importance which is regionally abundant, but which may have limited distribution in some counties. 
Recommended Action: Limited to intensive control at the state, county and regional level as determined on a case-by-case basis.  Where implementation of a fully integrated statewide management plan is not feasible, biological control  (when available) shall be the main control methods.

Gorse is also a “T” designated weed by the Oregon State Weed Board.  It is then a target on which the Oregon Department of Agriculture will develop and implement a statewide management plan.

That's all for now.

[Garland Bayley]

Eric,

It is good to see you post again.

George,

What kind of masochist are you? If you like thorns so much, I have a bunch of blackberry brambles at my place I would like your help in removing. I guess you would really get into the Oregon and Washington courses that have a problem with blackberries. They should probably be left alone to enable your enjoyment of the courses. I sure wouldn't want to see anyone removing them and dumbing down the courses. Besides creating a hazard, they flower beautifully in late spring. Do you want me to send you some seeds, or rooted cuttings?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Will,
Hi.
In looking at the aerial:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.185391~-124.396691&style=a&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
What gorse are you referring to?
The small island protecting the 14th tee?  or the area before that?

The fairway looks huge in the aerial - which I assume is before the most recent clearing.

It appears as if the green favors an approach from the right side - it has been a couple years since I played.

Why does it matter how open the left side is if the approach is more difficult from the left?

On 14 can you see the green from the tee?  thanks

[Will MacEwen]

Will,
Hi.
In looking at the aerial:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.185391~-124.396691&style=a&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
What gorse are you referring to?
The small island protecting the 14th tee?  or the area before that?

The fairway looks huge in the aerial - which I assume is before the most recent clearing.

It appears as if the green favors an approach from the right side - it has been a couple years since I played.

Why does it matter how open the left side is if the approach is more difficult from the left?

On 14 can you see the green from the tee?  thanks

Mike - I don't know if they cleared gorse on 17, or just widened the fairway to the left.  I don't think the approach is more difficult from the left, as if you are on the right side it is shorter but you have to carry it.

I noticed this year that you could bail out left and still play to the green - I am really not sure if it was gorse or rough that was cut out.  I am just not that observant.  The days I played, the tee was moved up, which also made a big difference.

Trying to relate an aerial photo to my addled memory is not going to do anyone any good. 

[Eric Johnson]

Will,
Hi.
In looking at the aerial:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.185391~-124.396691&style=a&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
What gorse are you referring to?
The small island protecting the 14th tee?  or the area before that?

The fairway looks huge in the aerial - which I assume is before the most recent clearing.

It appears as if the green favors an approach from the right side - it has been a couple years since I played.

Why does it matter how open the left side is if the approach is more difficult from the left?

On 14 can you see the green from the tee?  thanks

That aerial looks pretty old.  Looking at other areas on the golf course, I would date it mid-2005.

[Scott Weersing]

I'll give my estimation of what "dumbing down" is, on just three holes. And it has nothing to do with gorse.

4: You can spray the ball anywhere and find it. In fact, if you don't hit a good tee shot and get in the opening at the corner of the dogleg, you can still see the green from farther back because of work that was done to the inside corner of the dogleg. Also if you hook it left, you can now find your ball (and maybe have a shot) because of tearing down some of the sandy features and under scrub.

14: they removed the crap on the right side of the fairway and lowered the mounds. Now you can spray it right into 13 or go right over the crap and still have a good look at the green. Didn't used to be like that. You used to have to challenge the green/carry bunkers, play left, layup, or challenge the center bunker. What was the best hole on the course now isn't so much.

17: The whole left side of the fairway is now open and the tee shot presents NO challenge. You used to have to judge the wind and your distance and decide to hit a driver or a 3 wood to not go in the crap on the left or in the barranca on the right.

There you go. Taking away playability, making the course easier, and in turn, mindless, are "dumbing down" the golf course.

I think no. 17 is still challenging, especially when the tees are moved up as when I played it in February. It was downwind so I hit 5 iron, 9 iron both rounds. My partner hit a 3 wood left and ended up in a pot bunker. He blasted out and took a bogey. You could hit a long drive over the bunkers and short 50 yard shot on the green. But I would rather lay back and hit a full shot in.  In my second round, I made birdie on No. 17 on route to a personal record of 76.

It smelled like a campfire as they were burning gorse to the right of the no. 17 tee when I played.

[Mike Demetriou]

(I am a newbie, and this is my first post - so please forgive me if this doesn't fit here)

Since we're discussing Bandon - I have a question about the three courses in general.  My "crew" is attending Bandon for the first time in June. We have everything planned meticulously, but none of us have ever been, so I have some questions.

1.  There are eight of us (ranging from 10 - 20 handicaps) We are all taking experienced caddies, but I'm wondering if my group will benefit from yardage books as well? Do they sell yardage books at each course, or do they simply equip caddies with them and that should suffice for us? If anyone has a bunch they're interested in parting with, I'd be happy to buy them from you.

2.  We are playing Bally Bandon in the middle of our Ryder Cup format tournament, partly as a break, and partly as a treat for the half of us in the group who are true architecture fans.  Can anyone offer any advice in terms of format for friendly (and unorthodox) matches for eight - given that this is a very unusual course?

3.  Given that our group is mixed evenly with high/low handicaps, is it a mistake for us to play the back tees on Bandon Dunes and Pac Dunes? I am reticent to mix it up, for contiguity's sake, and even the high handicaps among us are skilled golfers, just not great scorers.  Will we regret not "seeing the course" from the back tees? Or is this going to be (because of the wind) like my experience at Erin Hills, where my ego caused me suffering (though I marveled at the course itself) despite the ample Black Course-like warnings to tee it up accordingly?

Thanks in advance for the feedback, I look forward to many posts, and to meeting, and maybe sharing a round or a pint with many of you.

[Tom Huckaby]

Welcome, Mike.

Bandon is a favorite place of many in this group.  So questions like yours have been discussed many times before... but heck, things change, so it's worth covering again.  Here's my take:

1.  There are eight of us (ranging from 10 - 20 handicaps) We are all taking experienced caddies, but I'm wondering if my group will benefit from yardage books as well? Do they sell yardage books at each course, or do they simply equip caddies with them and that should suffice for us? If anyone has a bunch they're interested in parting with, I'd be happy to buy them from you.
I'm a firm believer that caddies are not necessary at Bandon, and much of the time are not worth the added expense.  If you've already made that decision however, then great!  Go for it - they surely won't be a detriment.  But there's no way you also need yardage guides if you have caddies - the courses are not THAT mysterious. 

2.  We are playing Bally Bandon in the middle of our Ryder Cup format tournament, partly as a break, and partly as a treat for the half of us in the group who are true architecture fans.  Can anyone offer any advice in terms of format for friendly (and unorthodox) matches for eight - given that this is a very unusual course?
By this I take it you mean the Sheep Ranch site?  You'll enjoy it - it is great fun.  In terms of matches, the best way to do is some sort of partners thing (chapman, two man scramble, straight better ball) but make it that the winner of the hole calls what green you play to for the next hole.  I know this sounds weird but it will make sense when you get there... and it will be a blast.

3.  Given that our group is mixed evenly with high/low handicaps, is it a mistake for us to play the back tees on Bandon Dunes and Pac Dunes? I am reticent to mix it up, for contiguity's sake, and even the high handicaps among us are skilled golfers, just not great scorers.  Will we regret not "seeing the course" from the back tees? Or is this going to be (because of the wind) like my experience at Erin Hills, where my ego caused me suffering (though I marveled at the course itself) despite the ample Black Course-like warnings to tee it up accordingly?
Wind will determine everything.  If it's blowing hard, even plus handicaps wouldn't suffer from moving up a block or two... and higher cappers will get brutalized.  If it's not, just wait, it will. But in any case I think ony Pacific can get too short for better players... the other two are just fine from any tee.

[George Freeman]

Will,
Hi.
In looking at the aerial:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.185391~-124.396691&style=a&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
What gorse are you referring to?
The small island protecting the 14th tee?  or the area before that?

The fairway looks huge in the aerial - which I assume is before the most recent clearing.

It appears as if the green favors an approach from the right side - it has been a couple years since I played.

Why does it matter how open the left side is if the approach is more difficult from the left?

On 14 can you see the green from the tee?  thanks

Mike,

The entire finger of Gorse (or at least the majority of it) that stretches out between the sightline of the tee and green from your aerial has been removed on 14.  You can see the flag from the tee-box (but not the green, however I don't know if this was the case prior to the gorse being removed).  To me it looks like it took out some of the risk of going straight at the green, and made it much less intimidating of a shot.  Now it seems like there isn't much reason to not hit right at it, if you come up short, you'll have a short chip (at a bad angle) into the green.  I was attempting to play a fade at the left side of the green, popped up my drive and landed on top of the small hill to the north of the two bunkers that are at the finger of gorse in your aerial.  Prior to the removal, that ball is as good as dead; however when I played it, I could see my ball from 60 yards sitting in thin scruffy grass, had a clean lie, and hit a sandwedge without any trouble.   

[Rich Goodale]

I haven't played Bandon for 7-8 years, but am very familiar with patterns of gorse removal on Scottish links courses.  As Tom D and others have said, periodic selective clearing when the plants get to be 8-10 feet high seems to be the norm.  I can see the reasons for this (pest--e.g. rabbit--control, fire prevention, the fact that the buggers get ugly and harder to remove the bigger they get), but there is no doubt in my mind that these programmes do have the effect of "dumbing down" the course for all levels of golfers.  Hackers will lose far fewer balls and actually be able to complete a proper round of stroke play, decent players will be less intimidated, and elite players will be able to hit more full swings when corridors are widened.  The course I know best, Dornoch, is definitely easier now than it was 15-20 years ago when the gorse management programmes were started.  Prior to then, holes like the 7th and 18th were both long and extremely narrow off the tee.  Now they are effectively  less long (due to I&B advances) and wide enough to eliminate a lot of the fear.  From the point of view of the club, this is a good thing as it speeds up the pace of play and creates more happy customers.  It's only wingnuts like the people on this site (like me) who regret that the course is no longer the ball-buster that it used to be, but c'est la vie.

[Garland Bayley]

... but there is no doubt in my mind that these programmes do have the effect of "dumbing down" the course for all levels of golfers....

You know, it's a wonder that TOC is considered the best course in the world, especially since Old Tom Morris spent the better part of his life dumbing it down.

It must have been absolutely heaven before he began removing gorse and widening fairways.
 

[Rich Goodale]

Nice post, Garland, except for the fact that only naive romantics consider TOC to be the best course in in the world .  James Balfour essentially said c. 1880 that the Committee (OTM was just the messenger) did dumb down the course, but if they had not, we'd all be playing golf with full hockey goalie regalia, if we were playhing at all.

[Garland Bayley]

Gotta remember to take my hockey regalia when I go to Bandon. 

[Rich Goodale]

Don't forget the Happy Gilmore swing, Garland......

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Bandon Dunes yesterday for the first time in quite a few years.  Seems like I'm always drawn to the other courses.


First, I had forgot how great it really is.  There is a terrific collection of holes and variety.


The course is in really good condition considering they have had 60 inches of rain in the last few months.  Bandon Trails was closed and Pacific Dunes which I played the day before is not in that great of condition.


The greens at Bandon Dunes are huge.  Its a good thing because we played in a steady 30 MPH wind.


The gorse has been cut back but I didn't find it distracting.


The par 5s are good but the strength is in the par 4s and 3s. 


The 13th hole has some of the most fairway movement I can recall. I told Mike Keiser that and he said I was the first person he can recall to ever comment on that hole.   David Kidd was concerned with the mounding when he first built it but Mike told him to leave it.


The 5th hole may be my favorite hole on the property.

[Ronald Montesano]

"The 13th hole has some of the most fairway movement I can recall. I told Mike Keiser that and he said I was the first person he can recall to ever comment on that hole.   David Kidd was concerned with the mounding when he first built it but Mike told him to leave it. "


Mike Keiser has an incredible touch with humanity. I believe that it was passed on by him and his wife to their children.

[Terry Lavin]

I'll be there in mid-May for my eighth trip. It's an absolutely epic trip. Great golf, excellent hospitality, phenomenal caddies. A perfect 10.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll be there in mid-May for my eighth trip. It's an absolutely epic trip. Great golf, excellent hospitality, phenomenal caddies. A perfect 10.

I was trying to figure out how many times I've been there.  I'm saying it was my 10th? 


The resort is first class.  You may not know that Hank Hickox the longtime GM has retired and the new guy hasn't missed a beat. I believe he came from the Ritz Carlton group.


The wine collection is off the charts.  I highly recommend Mount Veeder Cab if they still have it.

[John Kavanaugh]

The course is in really good condition considering they have had 60 inches of rain in the last few months.  Bandon Trails was closed and Pacific Dunes which I played the day before is not in that great of condition.

Joel,


Have you ever played a Doak course in great condition? Seriously, I'd love to hear of an example.

[Terry Lavin]

Doak course in good shape?  Lost Dunes pretty much every summer, especially when the greens max out around 9.5. I haven't played that many TD courses but PD is a revelation and Lost Dunes is a solid 7.

[John Kavanaugh]

Can't argue with Lost Dunes. It's been in great shape the two times I have played there. Gotta say though, greenside fans in that climate...not good.

[Lyndell Young]

I'm heading that way for a Father /Son trip April 1. Looking forward to seeing the courses, it has been several years!

[Tom_Doak]

Have you ever played a Doak course in great condition? Seriously, I'd love to hear of an example.

John:


That's the most ignorant post you've made here in years.  [And that's saying something.]  I've been fortunate to work with some great superintendents who devote their time and effort to present my golf courses well, and you demean their work trying to grasp for some silly dig at my work?


Haven't you played Streamsong?  The only complaint I've ever heard about it is that sometimes the greens are too fast.  Or maybe you should go play Tara Iti or The Renaissance Club -- I have never played a better conditioned course than those two, although they do have the advantage of limited play.  Rock Creek, Tumble Creek, and Stone Eagle are all pretty near perfect, too.


Those are all just off the top of my head; my apologies to those I've missed.


P.S.  Pacific Dunes is in pretty good shape for a course that's done 45,000 rounds per year for the last 16 years.  Remember, Joel is playing it after five months of heavy play when the grass isn't growing and divots can't heal.  I'd like to see the course that looks in great shape after that.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,


I believe most if not all consistent maintenance issues are a function of design and not the fault of the super. When I played Streamsong it was in a small tournament and we played lift clean and place because of the poor condition of the fairways. I always thought, and you had confirmed, that was due to the lack of properly built cart paths. Sometimes courses have design issues besides being too damn popular.


If we go through and list every course of yours that I have played and discuss why each and everyone has a particular maintenance issue we will find two common themes. Conditions deemed poor by golfers often labeled ignorant of what is good for them and you. It would be an old tired exercise benefiting no one. I doubt very much that any single super can be blamed and that was never my intent. I asked Joel a simple question in response to his comment. Where's the harm in that?

[Tom_Doak]

 When I played Streamsong it was in a small tournament and we played lift clean and place because of the poor condition of the fairways. I always thought, and you had confirmed, that was due to the lack of properly built cart paths. Sometimes courses have design issues besides being too damn popular.

That issue was sorted out by taking carts off the course in winter, except for those with a medical need.  That was the decision favored by Coore & Crenshaw and myself, and Mosaic ownership, and their superintendents.  None of us wanted to see cart paths all over the courses, and I doubt they are putting them in on the new course, either.  Choosing against your preferences does not qualify as a "design issue."