Has Bandon Dunes been "dumbed down" too much?

[George Freeman]

I recently made my maiden voyage to Bandon Dunes with my Dad for 4 days of non-stop golf.  We had an unbelievable time and were absolutely blown away by all three courses and the "resort" in general.  I would be hard pressed to think of a better place to spend a long weekend with buddies on a golf trip.

However, during our round on Bandon Dunes, my Dad and I couldn't help but get the feeling that the course had been substantially "dumbed down" (i.e. softened), with specific regard to Gorse removal.  You could see large areas adjacent to the fairways on more than a few holes where it looked as if large areas of Gorse had recently been removed.  This feeling was confirmed by our two playing partners, one of which had been at the resort last November, who commented that a lot of Gorse had been removed since their last visits.  (A couple specific examples I can remember were the knobs in the middle of the 5th fairway, and on the inside of the dogleg on #14, however there were numerous others).

I understand that the resort is most likely doing this out of necessity to keep rounds under the 5-6 hour mark, but I did feel that it took away some from the way the course was meant to look/feel/play.  I had read a few articles that stated a decent amount of Gorse was removed from Bandon Dunes a couple years after it was finished, for playability reasons, but seeing that these articles were few years old, it seems like they are continuing w/ the removal.

It is impossible for me to compare the course then from now as I have only played it once, but I couldn't help but notice that it seemed like the course had been "dumbed down" quite a bit, to my disappointment.  Can anyone who has played the course throughout its evolution explain how it has changed since opening; and are their any opinions on whether or not people think they are dumbing the course down too much?

Don't get me wrong, it is a fantastic course that I enjoyed immensely...I just wonder how much more enjoyable it could have been prior to the changes...
     

[Tim Pitner]

George,

Bandon Dunes has undergone quite a few changes over the years but I'm not sure the overall effect is "softening."  The two biggest changes I've noticed have been on #16 and #17.  On #16, there used to be more rough on the left side of the fairway; the decision to create more fairway left was an inspired one--it allows for a greater variety of shots and no shot from that angle, with the bunker in front and the cliff in back, is going to be easy.  On #17, I believe more fairway was also created to the left, wrapping in the bunkers.  It's still a tight tee shot, if you decide not to lay up. 

The now-aborted new first hole had me up in arms because I like the original #1 and because I thought it would have been a dumbing-down.  I agree that the gorse removal has robbed the course of a certain aesthetic appeal, especially on #14, but I'm not sure the intent of the removal was to speed up play.  It may have been more for maintenance reasons.  Tom Jefferson can shed more light on this subject. 

[Reef Wilson]

When I was there in 2007, they had a little pictorial with text in the bandon pro shop explaining the gorse removal. It focused on the 14th green over the years, including times when it was surrounded by huge towering walls of gorse, which is how I first saw it in early 2005. I think left unchecked the stuff would grow right onto the green and it must be very difficult or impossible to keep that stuff trimmed to a reasonable level so they have to go through stages of clearing it and then letting it go for a while and then clearing it again. And I imagine in some spots, like the 14th, they have decided they don't want to go through this process at all and they are trying to eliminate it and keep it out for good. The hole does play easier without the walls of gorse but I'm guessing that is an effect not a motive.

[Jed Peters]

I've said here a few times before that Bandon has been significantly softened since I first played it in 1999, 2000, and 2001.

Personally, while I think it's a great course still, it does not have the luster (for me) that Pac or Trails does from a design aspect.

Personally, I think it's the "worst" of the three.

[Will MacEwen]

I noticed the gorse removal this winter, and got the feeling it related to maintenance more than play.  They took a huge amount out on the right side of the fairway on 13.

I must say the course had more visual appeal with more gorse, in my opinion.

[George Freeman]

George,

Bandon Dunes has undergone quite a few changes over the years but I'm not sure the overall effect is "softening."  The two biggest changes I've noticed have been on #16 and #17.  On #16, there used to be more rough on the left side of the fairway; the decision to create more fairway left was an inspired one--it allows for a greater variety of shots and no shot from that angle, with the bunker in front and the cliff in back, is going to be easy.  On #17, I believe more fairway was also created to the left, wrapping in the bunkers.  It's still a tight tee shot, if you decide not to lay up. 

Tim,

Regarding #16:  I didn't realize that the open area left of the green wasn't as large originally.  To me, that aspect of the hole really added to the overall quality of it, and as you said, gave many more options.  I know first hand, I choke-pulled my drive left away from the cliff and was faced with a completely blind shot of about 80 yds, over the large fairway bunker complex, and then the greenside bunker, with death obviously long.  I definitely got punished for a sissy line off the tee (which I should have!). 

But 16 also exhibited the point of my initial post:  a "softening" due to gorse removal.  When I played it two weekends ago, it looked like they had recently removed a large area of gorse short of the green directly in line between the green and the tee box.  It is the area a ball would land in if a player went directly at the green (the most aggressive line) and came up short.  My Dad hit it down there, and we could actually see his ball, and he walked down and got it (might have tried to play it if he was a little more adventurous).  Prior to the removal of the gorse, that ball might as well have been in the Pacific Ocean. 

[Pete_Pittock]

The short answer is no, people book return trips. Gorse removal is a constant project with people dedicated to the job.

[Richard Choi]

I am a little surprised that on a board like this where minimalism and course fitting to existing land is highly prized that anyone would WANT a course like Bandon Dunes to keep gorse.

Gorse is an invasive specie non-native to Oregon coast. It does not belong there and they SHOULD be removed if no other reason than the fact that they are not "natural".

I say good riddance. Bandon Dunes should be Scottish in its spirit only, and not behave like a cheap copy.

[Tom_Doak]

95% of the reason the gorse is being removed is just to keep it from taking over the whole resort.

At Pacific Dunes and at Old Macdonald we are struggling with the same issues.  At Pacific, we left patches of gorse that I consider integral to the design for playability or aesthetic reasons ... but they don't work so well once the gorse gets 8-10 feet high, so my thought is to periodically whack it out of there but to let some grow back.  The superintendents would just as soon remove it entirely [to the extent that is possible] and not have to deal with it in the future, but in areas that I think are critical, they still have some sympathy for my viewpoint.

I am pretty sure nothing is coming out of Bandon Dunes that David Kidd really wanted to save.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The changes to 16 and 17 made two very weak holes better. Tom layed out a solid reason for gorge removal. The wind is the defense and a good one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Do you see an alternative to the gorse, one that will preserve the architectural intent ?

[Tim Pitner]

But 16 also exhibited the point of my initial post:  a "softening" due to gorse removal.  When I played it two weekends ago, it looked like they had recently removed a large area of gorse short of the green directly in line between the green and the tee box.  It is the area a ball would land in if a player went directly at the green (the most aggressive line) and came up short.  My Dad hit it down there, and we could actually see his ball, and he walked down and got it (might have tried to play it if he was a little more adventurous).  Prior to the removal of the gorse, that ball might as well have been in the Pacific Ocean. 

George,

With the ridge short (which does come into play into the wind) and the cliff to the right, I'm not sure the gorse is needed strategically. 

Tiger, 

I know BD #16 has its detractors, but I think it may have been John K who commented that the pitch shot into #16 green from the left, with the pot bunker in front and death beyond the green, was the single most attention-grabbing shot at the resort--and I agree with him.  Since they started mowing more grass to the left and even behind the green, the hole has gone way up in my view. 

[Will MacEwen]

I am a little surprised that on a board like this where minimalism and course fitting to existing land is highly prized that anyone would WANT a course like Bandon Dunes to keep gorse.

Gorse is an invasive specie non-native to Oregon coast. It does not belong there and they SHOULD be removed if no other reason than the fact that they are not "natural".

I say good riddance. Bandon Dunes should be Scottish in its spirit only, and not behave like a cheap copy.

It may not be native, but the gorse arrived long before the course, and is a footnote in the history of the region.  I don't think it makes the course a cheap copy at all.

[JC Jones]

95% of the reason the gorse is being removed is just to keep it from taking over the whole resort.

At Pacific Dunes and at Old Macdonald we are struggling with the same issues.  At Pacific, we left patches of gorse that I consider integral to the design for playability or aesthetic reasons ... but they don't work so well once the gorse gets 8-10 feet high, so my thought is to periodically whack it out of there but to let some grow back.  The superintendents would just as soon remove it entirely [to the extent that is possible] and not have to deal with it in the future, but in areas that I think are critical, they still have some sympathy for my viewpoint.

I am pretty sure nothing is coming out of Bandon Dunes that David Kidd really wanted to save.

I hear fire works pretty well for getting rid of gorse......

[George Freeman]

"Has Bandon Dunes been "dumbed down" too much?"

Perhaps someone on this board could explain the correct amount of dumbing down allowed before it becomes too much...

This is an explanation I would be interested to hear...

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey George .... good question on dumbing down !


In building/ designing  a course  it's really easy to make a hole difficult..just need a little water and rough .. or either in great quantities to affect scoring  .....not even length is as big an impediment

Perhaps that's why the truly great golf couses are chameleons...one day it's fairly benign..the next very difficult to master

Dumbing down could actually be what separates the great from the good architects and their work....think of a hole that can challenge the expert yet seems playable for the handicap player  and you've got something special...

As to that , I'm not sold on the multiple tee approach ( Arghh!!!) to design...  rather designing a course that  can be played by a myriad of playing styles  , which might appear to be  "Dumbing Down"  is actually quite fascinating.

This is why certain "classic" couses continue to be the most talked about to this day

[Jim Adkisson]

I don't think that the gorse being removed from places that you want to play, like around 14 or between 7 and 8 "dumbs down" the course that much...they are still bad places to play from...

But the one place that gorse removal was disappointing to me on my last visit in February was on the walk from 14 green to 15 tee...you could see all of the 16th hole on the walk...the wall of gorse kept one from seeing the 16th hole, raising the anticipation for one of the most beautiful holes to play in the late afternoon.

[Jim Colton]

Any idea how much time and cost Bandon spends on gorse removal per year?  Unless there's a torch involved, it seems like an extremely timely and costly exercise.

[JohnV]

George,

The gorse that has been removed recently wasn't there when the course opened.  Also, as a part of getting the permits to build the course, it was agreed that the gorse would be removed or at least kept under control.

I was back there last October for the US Mid-Am and was frankly shocked at the amount of gorse growth since the last time I was there in 2002.  Even then there had been substantial growth since I first saw the course in 1998.

As for dumbing down, I think that keeping the course playable for the people who come there isn't dumbing down, just good maintenence.

[Dan Herrmann]

IIRC, gorse removal was key to getting the resort going.  Remember, gorse-induced fires caused Bandon town to burn in the past.  It's a real fire danger, especially on dry and windy days.

Check out http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2007/08/14/public_records/police_reports/vitals01081407.txt

[Scott Weersing]

Is Bandon Dunes softened by gorse removal?

I have examples of the course being easier because of tree removal.

 I played there in February and hit a tee shot on no. 4 that went right. I found it on the sand and hit a 9 iron on to the green for a simple par.  In the past, this area was covered with trees, bushes, and gorse and my ball would have been lost. I like courses where you have a chance of finding your ball after a wayward tee shot.  Another area which is now playable is to the right of the no. 8 green. It is now just sand but it used to be small pine trees and you would lose your ball. I like it better now because I thought it was unfair to have trees so close to the green on a links course.

The removal of gorse does not soften the course but rather it takes away some of the intimidation factor. For example, at one time, you had to hit over gorse bushes to reach the 18th fairway.  I don't think gorse is part of the design of the course.

[Jed Peters]

I'll give my estimation of what "dumbing down" is, on just three holes. And it has nothing to do with gorse.

4: You can spray the ball anywhere and find it. In fact, if you don't hit a good tee shot and get in the opening at the corner of the dogleg, you can still see the green from farther back because of work that was done to the inside corner of the dogleg. Also if you hook it left, you can now find your ball (and maybe have a shot) because of tearing down some of the sandy features and under scrub.

14: they removed the crap on the right side of the fairway and lowered the mounds. Now you can spray it right into 13 or go right over the crap and still have a good look at the green. Didn't used to be like that. You used to have to challenge the green/carry bunkers, play left, layup, or challenge the center bunker. What was the best hole on the course now isn't so much.

17: The whole left side of the fairway is now open and the tee shot presents NO challenge. You used to have to judge the wind and your distance and decide to hit a driver or a 3 wood to not go in the crap on the left or in the barranca on the right.

There you go. Taking away playability, making the course easier, and in turn, mindless, are "dumbing down" the golf course.

[Will MacEwen]

I'll give my estimation of what "dumbing down" is, on just three holes. And it has nothing to do with gorse.


17: The whole left side of the fairway is now open and the tee shot presents NO challenge. You used to have to judge the wind and your distance and decide to hit a driver or a 3 wood to not go in the crap on the left or in the barranca on the right.

There you go. Taking away playability, making the course easier, and in turn, mindless, are "dumbing down" the golf course.

The change on 17 is really noticeable.  Still a good hole, but it used to be a very tough and great hole.  They also had the tees up a block this year when I visited, which made a huge difference.  Much easier to make a 4 now.

[Tim Pitner]

I'll give my estimation of what "dumbing down" is, on just three holes. And it has nothing to do with gorse.

4: You can spray the ball anywhere and find it. In fact, if you don't hit a good tee shot and get in the opening at the corner of the dogleg, you can still see the green from farther back because of work that was done to the inside corner of the dogleg. Also if you hook it left, you can now find your ball (and maybe have a shot) because of tearing down some of the sandy features and under scrub.

14: they removed the crap on the right side of the fairway and lowered the mounds. Now you can spray it right into 13 or go right over the crap and still have a good look at the green. Didn't used to be like that. You used to have to challenge the green/carry bunkers, play left, layup, or challenge the center bunker. What was the best hole on the course now isn't so much.

17: The whole left side of the fairway is now open and the tee shot presents NO challenge. You used to have to judge the wind and your distance and decide to hit a driver or a 3 wood to not go in the crap on the left or in the barranca on the right.

Wow.  I don't like the sound of what has happened on #4 or #14 at all.  Jed, when did you last play the course.  When I was there last in 2006, what you describe was not the case. 

On #17, I noticed fairway to the left of the bunkers where there didn't used to be, but I still thought it was a difficult shot--you had to choose between left or right of the bunkers if you hit driver and risked the barranca.  Has it been opened up even more on the left?

[Jed Peters]

I'll give my estimation of what "dumbing down" is, on just three holes. And it has nothing to do with gorse.

4: You can spray the ball anywhere and find it. In fact, if you don't hit a good tee shot and get in the opening at the corner of the dogleg, you can still see the green from farther back because of work that was done to the inside corner of the dogleg. Also if you hook it left, you can now find your ball (and maybe have a shot) because of tearing down some of the sandy features and under scrub.

14: they removed the crap on the right side of the fairway and lowered the mounds. Now you can spray it right into 13 or go right over the crap and still have a good look at the green. Didn't used to be like that. You used to have to challenge the green/carry bunkers, play left, layup, or challenge the center bunker. What was the best hole on the course now isn't so much.

17: The whole left side of the fairway is now open and the tee shot presents NO challenge. You used to have to judge the wind and your distance and decide to hit a driver or a 3 wood to not go in the crap on the left or in the barranca on the right.

Wow.  I don't like the sound of what has happened on #4 or #14 at all.  Jed, when did you last play the course.  When I was there last in 2006, what you describe was not the case. 

On #17, I noticed fairway to the left of the bunkers where there didn't used to be, but I still thought it was a difficult shot--you had to choose between left or right of the bunkers if you hit driver and risked the barranca.  Has it been opened up even more on the left?

I play every year between Dec. 26-Dec. 31. So last time was this last Dec. 30th on Bandon.