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Alan Carter

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Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« on: May 02, 2008, 12:06:30 AM »
The thread a week or so ago started my thoughts in motion, but the latest thread that asks you to put MPCC vs Pasatiempo's par 3's has brought the question to the forefront.

I would love to hear the thoughts on these two Stanley Thompson mountain courses, that both happen to have five par 3's on each.  Compare, compliment, criticize, say what you will, but I would love to hear what this illustrious group of architectural minds has to say about the two course's sets of par 3's. 

I'm obviously too close to the situation to put my two cents in for a little while, but I certainly will in the end. 

In advance, thanks for your input!

ac

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 08:43:44 AM »
Alan,

As you know, Thompson's "Big Five" -- Jasper, Banff, St. George's, Capilano and Highlands Links -- ALL feature five par-3s. Interesting fact, isn't it.

Re the one-shot holes at Jasper and Banff, I'll say both sets of par-3s are very typical of Thompson's best work, specifically with regard to variety. Overall, it's a tough comparison; difficult to say which collection is better.

Let's try a Ran Morrissett match-play scenario, to see (using Banff's current sequence):

#4 Jasper vs. #2 Banff
ALL SQUARE (Both very good holes)

#7 Jasper vs. #4 Banff
BANFF 1UP (Devil's Cauldron wins)

#9 Jasper vs. #8 Banff
ALL SQUARE (Quirky Cleopatra wins)

#12 Jasper vs. #10 Banff
BANFF 1UP (Banff's 10th is an excellent hole, played over a corner of the Bow River)

#15 Jasper vs. #13 Banff
ALL SQUARE (The short 15th, Bad Baby, ties it up in the end... Canada's "2 or 20" hole!)

There you go! For whatever it's worth  ;D

Frankly, all 10 holes noted above are very, very good.
jeffmingay.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 08:58:19 AM »
Jeff, Isn't the 2nd at Banff a Ross?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 10:10:34 AM »
Adam,

I've heard Banff's current 2nd is a hole Thompson kept from the original course (Ross) there. Not 100% certain though. Either way it's a neat par-3, played uphill, over a dip in the ground to a nicely bunkered green.
jeffmingay.com

henrye

Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 10:31:37 AM »
Jeff, while Jasper's #4 is a good long par 3, it just isn't as good as Banff's #2.  I don't care who designed that hole.  It's a great uphill 3.  As for Jasper's #7 and Banff's famed #4, I think they're both great holes and pretty close.  I guess the view and notoriety give Banff the edge, so I take no issue with your conclusion.  For whatever reason, that Cleopatra hole just doesn't cut for me.  I always feel like I'm at the top of a ski slope in summer, knocking a snowball down the hill.  The hole might be better if you were forced to hit your putter off the tee.  I may be being a bit harsh, but IMHO, it just isn't a great hole.  To be fair, neither is #8 at Banff, although the scene is about as tranquil as a Japanese garden with the brook flowing into the Bow.  Very pretty hole, but nothing spectacular.  I'd call them even.  Totally agree with Banff's #10.  The hole is in a different league to Jasper's #12.  What I love about the Bad Baby (#15) at Jasper is that the land required a short hole to fit on the peninsula linking 14 and 16, and the hole strikes me as so simple.  Just a short little Mount Fuji.  To compare this great little hole with Banff's weakest 3, is not just not a fair fight.  In the end, I get Banff 2-up.

Jim Johnson

Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 10:55:58 AM »
Having played Banff Springs numerous times "numerous" years ago, and Jasper Park just last summer, I think Jeff's assessment of the 10 holes is bang on.

Banff's #4 ... Devil's Cauldron ... definitely all-world. And I'm sorry, but with any view like that, nothing comes close.

And Jasper's #9 is the one par-3 hole that jumps out at me when I try to recall all of the holes at that course. Great spot in the routing, perfectly lined up with the mountain peak behind it. The bunker 20 yards in front of the green is a visual trick, and adds immensely to the hole.

When my wife and I played Jasper last summer, with another couple, the guy hit his tee shot about 6 inches from the hole on Bad Baby. I three-putted from the back fringe, although I blame that on the raucous call of a crow in the middle of my backstroke.   ;D

JJ

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 11:20:48 AM »
Henry,

I agree Banff's 2nd is a fine hole; but, I'm as fond of Jasper's 4th.

I also agree that Jasper's 7th may be as good -- from a pure golfing standpoint -- as the Cauldron. As Jim points out though, the Cauldron's setting pushes this hole a notch above Jasper's 7th.

As for Cleopatra, it's the quirk and oddity you describe that makes the hole so interesting and memorable in my view.

Bad Baby might be my personal favourite in this collection of great short holes, at Jasper and Banff.
jeffmingay.com

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2008, 12:05:28 PM »
I played both courses 2 summers ago and loved them both.  I think both courses have truly great par 3s...here is a picture of #2 at Banff for those of you who haven't seen it.



I would love to go back and sharpen my opinion.

Bart

Ian Andrew

Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 10:43:37 AM »
Jeff, Isn't the 2nd at Banff a Ross?

Adam,

I'm struck how often this is called a Ross hole - it may be in the same corridor - but I don't buy this for a minute.

Think about this in context. This project was a huge deal for Thompson's career, he spent over a million dollars and managed to almost double the origional budget for the project. He nearly got himself fired halfway through the extra blasting and importing of materials from down the valley. Do you think he would leave a single hole behind and just "rebunker" it when he was seeding the course with his own selection of grasses that he imported? I don't buy the arguement. It may be in the same corridor, but he would have built his own version of the hole.

Ian Andrew

Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 11:13:52 AM »
Alan,

I will always prefer the mix of par threes at Jasper because of the superior balance and I will explain why:

The holes at Jasper point in all four directions of the compass and none follow the same direction as the previous holes. The par threes at Banff touch 3 points on the compass (not a weakness – Merion only touches 2!) but the last three all play in the exact same direction (I verified this with Google Earth today).

The holes at Jasper play, off an elevated tee, quite uphill, very downhill with a large drop, on grade and finally slightly downhill. The shots at Banff are uphill, downhill, on grade, on grade and on grade. Once again my point has to do with the final three holes.

The approaches at Jasper can be “running approaches” on the 4th and the 9th at Jasper because Thompson built in ground alternatives to get to the green. All the approaches at Banff need to be aerial because of the nature of the hole or the slopes in front of the green. I find that with a change of wind these options become more valuable and interesting.

The yardages are for Jasper are 140, 178, 231, 181 and 138. I find I play everything from a knockdown driver on 4, a mid-iron on the 7th, and long iron on the 9th, another mid-iron on 12 and pitching wedge on the final one. That is great variety.

At Banff the holes are 179, 199, 158, 197 and 141. I find the downhill and uphill nature of the 2nd and 4th places a similar club in hand for me. Also the 8th and 17th are similar distances with the wind following on both. I don’t find I have as much variety or face his traditional approach of having to hit a very long club on one hole. This is nit-picking but still a minor point.

In my opinion Jasper has not only the best set of par threes between the two, but is the best set in the country.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 12:40:44 PM »
Ian, Your argument makes a lot of sense except for the feeling, likely caused by the front bunkers, that it was a Ross. Same could be said for another hole. I'm having difficultly remembering the number since we played it twice, once in the original config. It was a wide two shot hole with a raised green that Ran and I both felt did not expand the green's fill pads far enough, after the more recent renovation. Perhaps the 7th or 8th?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Alan Carter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 03:43:22 PM »
Ian, Your argument makes a lot of sense except for the feeling, likely caused by the front bunkers, that it was a Ross. Same could be said for another hole. I'm having difficultly remembering the number since we played it twice, once in the original config. It was a wide two shot hole with a raised green that Ran and I both felt did not expand the green's fill pads far enough, after the more recent renovation. Perhaps the 7th or 8th?

Adam, I believe that you are thinking of hole #6, that in the original routing was #10.  A very short par 4, with an elevated green site, somewhat defended by a couple of bunkers.   In the recent Skin's Game that was held there, Daly flew his tee shot to the back of the green.  A very uneventful hole.


henrye

Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 05:42:55 PM »
Alan,

I will always prefer the mix of par threes at Jasper because of the superior balance and I will explain why:

The holes at Jasper point in all four directions of the compass and none follow the same direction as the previous holes. The par threes at Banff touch 3 points on the compass (not a weakness – Merion only touches 2!) but the last three all play in the exact same direction (I verified this with Google Earth today).

The holes at Jasper play, off an elevated tee, quite uphill, very downhill with a large drop, on grade and finally slightly downhill. The shots at Banff are uphill, downhill, on grade, on grade and on grade. Once again my point has to do with the final three holes.

The approaches at Jasper can be “running approaches” on the 4th and the 9th at Jasper because Thompson built in ground alternatives to get to the green. All the approaches at Banff need to be aerial because of the nature of the hole or the slopes in front of the green. I find that with a change of wind these options become more valuable and interesting.

The yardages are for Jasper are 140, 178, 231, 181 and 138. I find I play everything from a knockdown driver on 4, a mid-iron on the 7th, and long iron on the 9th, another mid-iron on 12 and pitching wedge on the final one. That is great variety.

At Banff the holes are 179, 199, 158, 197 and 141. I find the downhill and uphill nature of the 2nd and 4th places a similar club in hand for me. Also the 8th and 17th are similar distances with the wind following on both. I don’t find I have as much variety or face his traditional approach of having to hit a very long club on one hole. This is nit-picking but still a minor point.

In my opinion Jasper has not only the best set of par threes between the two, but is the best set in the country.



......hmmmmm.

You make some good points, but hole vs. hole, I prefer Banff.  Also the analogy that you use the same club for Banff's # 2 and #4 is interesting, but these holes are very very different.  What's so great about Jasper's #4 & 12?

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 11:03:30 PM »
Alan,

As you know, Thompson's "Big Five" -- Jasper, Banff, St. George's, Capilano and Highlands Links -- ALL feature five par-3s. Interesting fact, isn't it.

Re the one-shot holes at Jasper and Banff, I'll say both sets of par-3s are very typical of Thompson's best work, specifically with regard to variety. Overall, it's a tough comparison; difficult to say which collection is better.

Let's try a Ran Morrissett match-play scenario, to see (using Banff's current sequence):

#4 Jasper vs. #2 Banff
ALL SQUARE (Both very good holes)

#7 Jasper vs. #4 Banff
BANFF 1UP (Devil's Cauldron wins)

#9 Jasper vs. #8 Banff
ALL SQUARE (Quirky Cleopatra wins)

#12 Jasper vs. #10 Banff
BANFF 1UP (Banff's 10th is an excellent hole, played over a corner of the Bow River)

#15 Jasper vs. #13 Banff
ALL SQUARE (The short 15th, Bad Baby, ties it up in the end... Canada's "2 or 20" hole!)

There you go! For whatever it's worth  ;D

Frankly, all 10 holes noted above are very, very good.

Having played both this week, I thought I'd weigh in here...

#4 Jasper vs. #2 Banff
- A difficult choice since the long par-3 is so rarely well done, and this brute is both visually attractive with its green set into the hillside on the left, but also really offering the golfer the choice of playing short of the green to a wide fairway, or risk reaching the green which is narrowed at the front by flanking bunkers.  But I think Banff #2 is the better hole.  The dip in the fairway and bunkering short of the green help to hide the elevation change, though the fact that the golfer cannot see much of the putting surface should help to give an idea that the hole plays uphill.  It's impossible to see from the tee, but the angled green is massive, some forty yards deep and sharply tilted from right to left.  Golfers are encourage to play boldly as bailing out left leaves a very speedy recovery.

Banff 1UP


#7 Jasper vs. #4 Banff
Not a particularly difficult choice, comparing the spectacularly sited Devil's Cauldron with the somewhat mundane 7th at Jasper.  Not that 7 at Jasper is an easy hole, far from it, which is almost surprising given how simple it looks.  The steep false-front means a running approach is out of the question and the back-to-front tilted green will receive approaches, but heaven help the golfer that carries his tee shot too far and finds the rear bunker.

Banff 2UP


#9 Jasper vs. #8 Banff
I was reminded of Ross' 4th at Bedford Springs when I played Jasper's 9th.  Now, Jasper's hole is eminently more playable, even allowing for a well thought-out running approach, but it's a hole that took some serious balls to build.  At over 230 yards, few golfers will find the putting surface and rather than having soft features on a hole where most will miss, Thompson showed no mercy challenging the golfer with cross-bunkering, deep fronting green-side bunkers, and sharp fall-offs left, long and right, the latter two into flat-bottomed bunkers.  Truly a unique and amazing hole.

Banff 1UP


#12 Jasper vs. #10 Banff
Not a difficult decision with Banff's 10th playing across the edge of the Bow River and Jasper's 12th being among the course's most forgettable holes.  The angled green adds to the interest as bailing out away from the river leaves a challenging recovery to a green that runs away.

Banff 2UP

#15 Jasper vs. #13 Banff
It is amazing that a hole that looks so inviting from the tee can be among the most frightening short par-3s I've ever played. Especially without wind the 15th at Jasper at 130 yards should be a birdie hole, but golfers steering away from trouble (which is short, left, right and long!) may find themselves making some poor swings. 

Banff 1UP

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Par 3's - Banff & Jasper
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 01:01:26 AM »
Mark

Which of the courses did you prefer overall? Would like to hear your perspective.

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