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Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2008, 02:52:35 PM »
I enjoyed The Preserve and think it is a solid track.  I echo a lot of what has been said about there not being many real "stand out" holes given the property and terrain but I don't recall any "dog holes" either.  In fact I've found that most Fazio courses I've played have steered away from trying to feature just one or two real "signature" holes and have actually done a good job of featuring consistent quality of holes throughout the round.  How high or low that consistent quality is can greatly be influenced by the budget offered, but consistent nonetheless.  I agree that The Preserve is rated by most publications higher than it probably warrants, but it is a special property and very nice course indeed.

Matt, you mentioned that The Preserve wasn't even in the same breath as Pasatiempo.  I think both tracks are great and personally wouldn't hesitate mentioning them in the same breath.  They are very contrasting styles to compare so I won't bother going there.  But I would really enjoy hearing your thoughts on what makes Glenwild vastly better than The Preserve since they are much more similar to compare/contrast.  Glenwild will always hold a special place in my heart after I aced the 227 yard 11th, but I guess I don't see the greatness that Glenwild has over The Preserve and would appreciate your thoughts so I can see a different perspective.  Thanks.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2008, 03:24:11 PM »
Matt,

If you think The Preserve principals had no thought of expense I would suggest you think again. They paid a hefty price for the place and then were subjected to unimaginable delays and law suits over the zoning, water rights and just about anything that the naysayer’s could conjure up.

It is a wonder that they built a golf course at all.

Bob


























Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2008, 03:52:25 PM »
Bob,

Do you recall the situation with the principals just before they were ready to break ground on the course?  Is my recollection of a tragic death wrong?  I am fairly sure that the construction budget was austere relative for what Fazio typically has to work with.

Bill,

I am not a big Pasatiempo fan, but I concur with your comments.

Matt,

You are mostly right.  I need to play ALOT more!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2008, 04:19:58 PM »
I believe it was Peter Stoker who was killed in a Helicopter crash. He and Sandy were responsible for the routing.
I thought the Faz took quite the risk on some of the greens i.e. the back section on 3 the Mae West mounds on 10. Even a few of the benched greens were very well done. i.e. #2 and 12 (?) It's been a while, sorry.
 The problem resides with some of the other greens. A little to many punchbowl areas to keep member balls in play. At least that was my impression from caddying there 4 rounds. Never played.

Bob, Re the 18th tee shot. Dramatic, yes. Good, ???? Certainly do or die. I wonder how the home hole, final approach, looks with the clubhouse? (thats how long it's been)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2008, 06:27:04 PM »
They also hold a wonderful high level amateur tournament (Stocker Cup)there every year. Feedback from those I know who have played it is really good course, really great place...

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2008, 07:03:47 PM »

Now I too would not call The Preserve particularly great, and it certainly does not deserve any place in our state's top 10, or 20....

How do explain it being Top 100 in US much less best in state?

I've been critical of this course since I played it.  Its a nice pleasant course with nothing special except the solitude.

I had a chance to talk with Sandy about it and he had some real nasty battles with Fazio.  Some he won and some he lost.   Its a good example of Fazio trying to minimalism and failing.


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2008, 07:24:36 PM »
I believe it was Peter Stoker who was killed in a Helicopter crash. He and Sandy were responsible for 

  A camera man was killed during the filming of the SWWOG episode there when his tower collapsed. Very strange.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Matt_Ward

Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2008, 11:14:57 AM »
Bob H:

I did not mean to imply or suggest that expense was completely dismissed. No doubt there is a budget for 99.99% of the courses ever built.

But the broader and more central issue is what actually came into being after all the approvals and other related issues.

The sad fact is that superior land only produced a so-so design. The Preserve is a good layout but it's far from one that would prompt anyone outside of 100 miles to wake up and say, "Boy, I really need to play THAT course."  Great land and location failed to have a course of equal stature.

That's a pity in my book.

 
Bill S:

Team Fazio has gotten better in achieving a consistent approach to design that provides more moments than just an obligatory one or two "signature" holes. The issue is does the level of effort rise to a certain greatness that sparks real diffentiation from previous efforts or is it merely a change of address / zip code.

I'd have to say the jury verdict on that, for me at least, is a mixed bag.

Bill, the issue of greatness is not whether the course is, in your words -- "nice" but does it offer a compelling portrait of a design that ADVANCES beyond what Tom Fazio has done previously. In those terms, for me at least, the answer is a clear no.
 
In regards to Pasatiempo -- I see Mackenzie doing far more on a very limited amount of land and in providing for a design that still holds itself well. Pasatiempo engenders shotmaking requirements that never lose their fascination for a wide range of players. For me, the different between them is really night and day.

Regarding Glenwild -- congrats on the hole-in-one !!! The 11th cuts a fine look from the tee -- seeing the ball disappear must have been a grand moment !

Glenwild, for me, is a cut above so many of other Team Fazio layouts. The demands are elevated and the diversity of holes is far greater than what you see with so many others. Glenwild is very beautiful but it cuts much deeper with change of pace situations that require the player to adjust constantly to the situation encountered. Take the hole that precedes the 11th -- the 10th is a wonderful short par-4. It offers an array of different options and then you jump to the 11th which is a very demanding but equally beguiling hole.

The issue for me so many times on GCA is that so few people play courses beyond a certain location. Few people see Park City as a golf destination but it's moving quite quickly to compete with other mountain areas as a supreme spot for quality golf. It's not there just yet, but the addition of Glenwild opened my eyes.

Tom Fazio is clearly capable of superior golf designs but I often wonder whether the sheer number of projects relegates his overall successful batting average to a lesser number than it might otherwise be.

, but I guess I don't see the greatness that Glenwild has over The Preserve and would appreciate your thoughts so I can see a different perspective.  Thanks.

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2008, 03:12:03 PM »
Thanks for the commentary Matt.  You're right, Park City is starting to grow into a golf destination; kind of amazing for a location at 7000 feet elevation.  Since Glenwild went it there have been the two courses at Promontory added (Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus), Tuhaye (Mark O'Meara), and Park Meadows has been doing a redesign.  There are three more on the way in Park City as well so we'll see how that goes.

I agree that many people don't make a big enough effort to investigate many locations.  I try to get around to a fair number of locations but have played most of my golf out West.  Currently I've played Fazio courses in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Montana, Texas, and Idaho.  It is interesting to see the differences and similarities he has applied to the various courses.  I'll be heading up to Gozzer Ranch this summer to check out Fazio's new course in Coeur d'Alene.  It will actually be his second course in Idaho.  The Valley Club near Sun Valley opened up a new nine designed by Tom last year.  From what I understand, Steve Wynn is a member there and talked Mr. Fazio into adding a new nine holes with an agreement he would redesign the existing Hale Irwin 18 hole design.


Matt_Ward

Re: The Preserve ...
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2008, 03:41:32 PM »
Bill S:

The key for Park City is not to simply add golf as just another diversion for the super rich hordes that are now adding a summer dimension to the time they spend there.

I'd like to see the quality dimension that Glenwild kicked-off when it opened. The design by Team Fazio there is first rate from the moment you tee off right through conclusion. I am especially a fan of the uphill dog-leg left 6th at 484 yards is truly one of thebest TF holes I have played. Calls upon superb accuracy with a good bit of distance too.

One other thing -- the greensites at Glenwild are all more than just simply functional and vanilla. They move in a variety of directions and you must not get caught on the short side at anytime to succeed.

Glenwild is simply underrated and underexposed.