[Jon Wiggett]

In my opinion it is not important that a course is fair but very important that a course is playable.

I would offer TOC as an example of this. There are many situations where 6" makes the difference between great shot and playing backwards out of a bunker which would be considered unfair by many but the course is playable for all standards in any weather conditions.

So here is the question.

1. What's the difference between fair and playable?
2. Is it possible to have too much or too little of either?
3. What effect do they have on the interest of the course for the average Golfer?

[Joe Hancock]

Jon,

I'm trying to think this through, and maybe not so well. In my mind, the only unplayable features on the course typically is water and out of bounds. And, you certainly can have too much of that.

Playability is probably what I'm struggling with. If that means making things easy enough for average golfers to make a lot of pars, or featureless enough that the course has no personality or challenge, then that is a bad thing.

Balance seems to, once again, be part of the answer. I'm just not sure if I covered many of your questions.

 

Joe

EDIT: I forgot to answer about fairness. I don't find much of anything unfair.....stupid maybe, but not unfair.... Unfair denotes an advantage goven to one of the parties involved (player or the course?) and I don't see how anything can be unfair in terms of stroke or match play, and certainly is a difficult term in man vs. course terms.

[BCrosby]

EDIT: I forgot to answer about fairness. I don't find much of anything unfair.....stupid maybe, but not unfair.... Unfair denotes an advantage goven to one of the parties involved (player or the course?) and I don't see how anything can be unfair in terms of stroke or match play, and certainly is a difficult term in man vs. course terms.

Well said Joe.

[Joe Hancock]

Thanks Bob.....especially since you got past that rogue word "goven". You would think a Two Fingered Huntin' Pecker (no longer on the endangered species list) would be able to whack the "i" key instead of the "o" key......but I guess the TFHP may be related to the same bird  the philosopher Homer referred to in his writings...the famous Doh Doh Bird.

 

[John Burzynski]

I would suspect that a playable and fair course means different things to different people, but in general, if you can play a course and score close to your normal handicap / score, then the course is probably considered fair and playable by most golfers.  I suppose that the same course might be fair for a better player but unfair for most high handicappers, or vice versa.

Lots of water or OB, at least for my game,  can make a course seemingly unfair.  A few water hazards here and there are OK, but if I am losing major stokes every two or three holes to the water, then, at least for my game (scores int hehigh 80's / low 90's), the course is unfair.  Maybe for a better golfer the same is not true.

Many newer courses have to much water...it is the one hazard (along I guess with OB) from which there is no recovery, whereas with sand or trees there is usually a chance for a save.

[BCrosby]

Joe -

If you are trying to say that Homer's bird reminds us that you can't talk about golf courses as being fair or unfair unless you assign to them a special ontological status not normally conferred on inanimate things, then I agree completely.

Otherwise, let's talk.

Bob

[Eric Morrison]

Fair and unfair are terms used way too often...everyone plays the same course. Most golfers know what type of course they are going to play...i.e. everyone who plays Pine Valley knows it is difficult, and the same goes for average Joe going to an easy public course. Unless the hole location is cut on a side slope, and the ball cannot stay there at all (which I would like to do some days!) everything is fair game. Just play the game and the enjoy the course.

[Adam Clayman]

It is not the course it is the people. Imagine CB's frustration trying to introduce the sport to a bunch of no it alls that know nothing.

[Jon Wiggett]

Joe,

I always think of playability as meaning a player has a realistic option to play the ball. This does not have anything to do with playing towards the hole or being able to play his handicap on any one given hole or course (thats what slope and course rating is for).

Don't worrz about the tzpos, I am using a german kezboard set up for english. The z is where the y should and the y is where the z should be} or is the other waz around_

[Eric Morrison]

I guess I didn't make it clear that I was thinking of the course setup for any given day as well...seems the most comments I receive about "fairness" is from hole locations.

[Jon Wiggett]

Your right Eric,

but I would call a pin where the ball can't stop near to the hole unplayable as well.

Which is more important? An unfair course can still be very playable but an unplayable course is never fair

[Richard Choi]

To me, playable and fair means that if I hit a decent to OK shot, I should be able to play it as it lies.

There are WAAAAY too many courses today where "in-bounds" ground is unplayable (too much vegetation and you cannot find the ball). In-bounds should mean that I have a reasonable chance of finding a ball and play it. When it is not, I call that course not playable and not fair.

[Joe Hancock]

Richard,

I think your criteria are normal. I tend to think more literally, I suppose, in that a stupid pin placement that doesn't allow a ball to come to rest near it is still playable, and fair under my thinking in a previous post.

After all, if you keep having to putt uphill to a stupid pin, doesn't it pit one golfers' skill level against another? Whoever is the best putter will knock it in from 20 feet below the hole in the fewest number of attempts.

Stupid, yet fair and playable.

Joe

[Ken Moum]

The people I know who use the word unfair to describe a golf course, generally are complaining about a lack proportionality in the outcome of golf shots.

For instance, they think centerline hazards, or trees, or rocks are unfair because they punish a shot that's in the middle of the fairway.

To date, none of them have welcomed my argument that when there's a centerline hazard, you have two fairways divided by the hazard, not one fairway with a hazard in the middle of it.

Clumpy rough around a green is unfair
Slope/speed that causes putts to run off a green are unfair
Divots in the short grass are unfair
Trees that block a shot from the middle of the fairway are unfair
Water hazards are fair
Narrow fairway are fair
Deep rough is fair... if it's not tallest near the fairway
Greens that won't hold "normal" iron shot are unfair

The list is long, and not entirely rational

Ken

[Rick_Noyes]

Playable?  If I can scape it around in a reasonable amount of time and post a score.

Fair/Unfair?  In terms of the architecture, maybe a blind water hazard.  Other than that...fair and unfair don't exist.

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