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Bob_Huntley

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Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« on: April 30, 2008, 12:26:10 PM »
Here is the link..

Comments from the gallery welcomed.

http://www.montereyherald.com/sports/ci_9104104

BVince

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 12:35:17 PM »
Bob, thanks for the update.  I will have to get down there to see all the hard work. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 12:52:21 PM by Bryon Vincent »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Mike Benham

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 12:38:35 PM »
I did notice the "jagged" edge bunkers ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tim Leahy

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 12:46:58 PM »
Being a big fan of the old layouts on both courses and not having seen the new changes yet, I would be interested in hearing opinions from those that have played both the new and old or have seen the new Black Horse.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Stan Dodd

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 02:22:45 PM »
Tim,
I too did like the Old layouts.  My thoughts on the new Bayonet 9.  As a resort course I do not see them getting much repeat business.  The layout is basically the same though some holes have changed in order.  The new fairway bunkers pinch the driving areas a bit too much IMHO.
The conours of the greens seemed contrived.  The slopes realy seem unnatural and seem to make it just hard and not fun. Most greens have more than two tiers or levels, with severe slopes. For example the old #3 or #4 the real long par 5 on that was always a struggle to reach in regulation is now just as long with bunkers pinching on both the drive and approach and now has a Biarritz green.  How much more defense does a 615 yard par 5 need for the average golfer?
Old # 6 is now #9 and is a 470 yard uphill par 4 with long unnatural grass to punish the foozler (me) with a lost ball.  It now doglegs around housing pads and is more difficult than before with a wildly contoured green.
Difficult is fun, excessively hard is just a slog.
I will not be playing there again particularly at the prices the expect to charge.  I found it more fun than poking my eyes with sharp sticks, but not much.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 02:28:14 PM »
I have played the "old" Bayonet only prior to Saturday.  The new front side is greatly improved in my opinion as the trees have been trimmed nicely and the primary design features (greens, bunkering, and tees) are more upscale and visually enticing.  The hole corridors are the same and I don't think that there was much tree removal (reportedly over 1,000 trees were removed- some transplanted to the periphery of the property- on the Black Horse course), so it remains relatively tight.  On a couple of holes, fairway bunkers pinch the fairways against trees on the opposite side, making the landing area extremely narrow.

The greens themselves appear to have considerably greater slope and more internal contouring.  They are very firm, and chipping is difficult.  Perhaps they will soften up a bit as they mature, otherwise, the combination of tight fairways (bent, I think), thick rough, and slope will make for very long, difficult rounds at what is planned to be a resort facility.

Personally, I liked the new nine.  The high, thick stuff they planted around and in front of many of the tees is absolutely nuts, but I suspect that they will either mow it down or thin it out to about 10% of its present consistency.  The 9th hole is absolute madness given its length, uphill second shot, bunkering scheme, and shallow green.  They can move the tees way up and perhaps shave the back hillside to use as a backboard, but I can't fathom what the architect was thinking when he built this hole.

From what we could see of Black Horse's second nine, it looked much more appealing with its free-flowing fairways and greens, ragged-edge bunkering, and openness.  Reportedly, it should play a couple of strokes easier than Bayonet.

The business model is quite another matter and worthy of a separate thread.  It appears that the feds retain some control of the property, perhaps via deed restrictions.  I would be interested in learning the roles of the city of Seaside (?) and private sector interests in the development and ownership of the formerly military property.  It is my understanding that the courses will attempt to compete with Spanish Bay and Spyglas Hill, and the hotel will seek to attract similar clientele as the facilities at Pebble Beach.  A projected green fee of $200+ was mentioned by some folks at the club, which, if true, seems to be highly overpriced.  We paid $105 for the new front side and a poorly maintained back (closes this week when the Black Horse back nine opens).  I wouldn't pay that kind of money to play the course again.  

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 02:51:18 PM »
At $200.00 a round there will ample tee times available at Bayonet.

Seaside ain't Pebble Beach.

Bob

Tom Huckaby

Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 02:57:24 PM »
Lou:  before I tear into a friend, please answer - when did you play the "old" Bayonet?  As in what year?

Bob - that price is unconscionable.  I full agree.  Tee times will be amply available without a doubt.

TH

Mike Benham

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2008, 02:59:35 PM »
At $200.00 a round there will ample tee times available at Bayonet.

Seaside ain't Pebble Beach.

Bob


And we caught a great weather day ... easy to sell homes on days like that ...

$ 200, really?   I suspect that Poppy Hills ($200 for non-NCGA members) has many openings for tee times as they have finally now offered a twilight rate.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2008, 03:32:14 PM »
I'm curious, was the Bayonet Course carved out of a cypress forest or were the trees planted after the constructuon of the golf course?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Lou_Duran

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2008, 03:40:31 PM »
TH,

2005.  I only meant "old" in the context of the current changes.  By 2005 some of the tree trimming had been done raising the canopy to six to eight feet above the ground.  However, the fairways were very narrow and the high rough did not permit the punch shot to the green (when you could get a closed faced club on the ball, the rough would just eat it up before you could get it to run out to the fairway).

RE: the $200 green fee, perhaps they are looking to maximize revenues without maximizing rounds.  Variable pricing based on the season and time of day might get them more volume without jeopardizing the upscale brand they might be trying to establish.  If a Fairmont Hotel goes up, I doubt that they would want muni prices for the amenities.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2008, 03:42:37 PM »
Lou:

Whew.  Cool.  OK, improved over 2005 is like saying Roseanne Barr with a face-lift is improved-looking.  So we're good.

If you would have said improved over say 1982, then we would have had some discussing to do.

And whatever they do with their $200 fee, well... it won't be coming out of my pocket! But that does make sense.

TH

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2008, 03:53:56 PM »
I'm curious, was the Bayonet Course carved out of a cypress forest or were the trees planted after the constructuon of the golf course?

I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the cypress trees were there from the courses inception, but the density and uniformity of trees lining each hole rings of man's hand quite loudly.

Anyone have hard evidence in this matter?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

David_Elvins

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2008, 06:36:37 PM »
Black Horse

No comment.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Ober

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2008, 09:29:26 PM »
I'll comment: "That looks fake."
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 05:35:47 PM by David Ober »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2008, 04:08:42 AM »
Looks like the same cookie form was used on all the bunkers ;D

If this is typical of the course would those people familiar with the course say it was an opportunity missed ???

SB

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2008, 03:45:41 PM »
There used to be some aerial photos in the clubhouse; all of the trees were planted. 

I would be surprised if they raised rates to $200 until the hotel opens.  It's just a little off the beaten path.  Now, once the hotel opens, $200 is a possibility.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 08:27:45 PM »
Bayonet, New 1st Hole


Bayonet, New 8th Hole


Both are par 5s.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tim Leahy

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2008, 03:01:07 PM »
Just looking at the pictures, I am sick to my stomach. It looks like they have ruined the course. All that bunkering was not needed and just seems to take away from the natural wooded feel of the course. It gives the fairways an overcrowded feel. In the past, just keeping the ball out of the woods was a great feeling. Now it looks like you can hit a good drive and still wind up being penalized. :'(
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 03:42:52 PM »
Just looking at the pictures, I am sick to my stomach. It looks like they have ruined the course. All that bunkering was not needed and just seems to take away from the natural wooded feel of the course. It gives the fairways an overcrowded feel. In the past, just keeping the ball out of the woods was a great feeling. Now it looks like you can hit a good drive and still wind up being penalized. :'(

Precisely, though I was glad to see that they trimmed the trees up such that recovery shots are now possible.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2008, 03:50:50 PM »
Kyle - yeah, it's now like any other golf course.

Sorry man, this is a point I've hammered on too many times in here... but the trimming of the trees was to me the beginnings of the death knoll for the course that have just come to full fruition now.  Back prior to 1990 or so, the course was extremely unique; totally unfair, the ultimate test of golf - and the main reason was the underbrush meaning any ball into the trees was either lost or unplayable.  Trimming the trees meant all that was left was just a hard golf course.  There are lots of those.  The world needs at least one stupidly unique torture chamber.

Thus I cry for the days of yore at Bayonet.  These pictures tell me my tears are legit.

TH

Kalen Braley

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 03:53:42 PM »
Kyle - yeah, it's now like any other golf course.

Sorry man, this is a point I've hammered on too many times in here... but the trimming of the trees was to me the beginnings of the death knoll for the course that have just come to full fruition now.  Back prior to 1990 or so, the course was extremely unique; totally unfair, the ultimate test of golf - and the main reason was the underbrush meaning any ball into the trees was either lost or unplayable.  Trimming the trees meant all that was left was just a hard golf course.  There are lots of those.  The world needs at least one stupidly unique torture chamber.

Thus I cry for the days of yore at Bayonet.  These pictures tell me my tears are legit.

TH

Well sheez Huck,

I must have missed your GreenPeace lapel pin over the weekend...I had no idea you were such a tree hugger.   ;D

I've never played them, but have seen pics from how it was before and it looked like a very very tough golf course.  If this was its signature feature, then I suppose tis a pity.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 03:54:35 PM »
Kyle - yeah, it's now like any other golf course.

Sorry man, this is a point I've hammered on too many times in here... but the trimming of the trees was to me the beginnings of the death knoll for the course that have just come to full fruition now.  Back prior to 1990 or so, the course was extremely unique; totally unfair, the ultimate test of golf - and the main reason was the underbrush meaning any ball into the trees was either lost or unplayable.  Trimming the trees meant all that was left was just a hard golf course.  There are lots of those.  The world needs at least one stupidly unique torture chamber.

Thus I cry for the days of yore at Bayonet.  These pictures tell me my tears are legit.

TH

Different strokes... Frankly, I think players may run their scores up higher from attempting to break out of jail and failing than they would if they just took a 2-stroke penalty and proceeded.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 03:57:32 PM »
LOL
NO tree hugger am I, except when such do make or break a golf course.

Now it's an entirely separate question what the "intent" of Bayonet initially was.  Reports are that the trees were all planted later, so someone wanted a tree-lined course.  That being said, the thought of that rolling land overlooking the sea being treeless does seem pretty cool.  

I just began playing the course in the early 80s, and it was as I described.  Yep, the trees were the signature feature, along with great drainage.  So you have it right - take this away and all uniquess is gone.

I'm assuming they still have the great drainage.

 ;D

Lou_Duran

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Re: Bayonet Blurb From Monterey Herald
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2008, 04:00:18 PM »
Tim,

I didn't object to the bunkering at all except as it tended to compound the problems posed by the trees.  On two or three holes (e.g. #3,) unless you can clear them off the tee, the area to play safe is further guarded by trees on the shot to the green.  Aesthetically, I think the front nine is much improved.